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Subject: Death Penalty rss

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Fortune
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Now that Iran is to review stoning sentence, I'm interested to know your thoughts on this form of punishment that is nothing short of barbarism. It is also exceptionally expensive, totally counter-productive and inevitably results in the murders of innocents and the freedom of some of society's worst criminals due to miscarriages of justice.

Poll
Should the death penalty be used?
Yes.
No.
      73 answers
Poll created by Fortune
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Henrik Havighorst
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I cannot believe some people voted Yes on this one.
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Mac Mcleod
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Ravenhoe wrote:
I cannot believe some people voted Yes on this one.


They are willing to execute innocent people to kill guilty people who committed select crimes in order to discourage people from committing those select crimes.

It has worked at times in the past. But usually the capture and punishment needs to be pretty swift. Also, for people who have nothing to lose anyway (say a person who has lost their job, their family, their house, and has reached the point that there isn't much difference between living and dying anyway in their opinion) it doesn't have any discouraging effect and probably promotes those who commit such crimes to be a bit more murderous.

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Ravenhoe wrote:
I cannot believe some people voted Yes on this one.


How 'bout six?
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Fortune
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Ravenhoe wrote:
I cannot believe some people voted Yes on this one.


I agree.. would anyone who voted "Yes" care to explain their proposition?
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Fortune wrote:
Ravenhoe wrote:
I cannot believe some people voted Yes on this one.


I agree.. would anyone who voted "Yes" care to explain their proposition?


I voted yes based on the question "Should it be used". I believe that there are circumstances in which the execution of certain indivuals, by the state, are justifiable.

Do I think the US needs to reevaluate it's use of the Death Penalty? Yes.
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maxo-texas wrote:
They are willing to execute innocent people


No I'm not.
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Christopher KrackerJack
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Fortune wrote:
Now that Iran is to review stoning sentence, I'm interested to know your thoughts on this form of punishment that is nothing short of barbarism. It is also exceptionally expensive, totally counter-productive and inevitably results in the murders of innocents and the freedom of some of society's worst criminals due to miscarriages of justice.

Poll
Should the death penalty be used?
Yes.
No.
      73 answers
Poll created by Fortune


Fortune, I request clarification on the wording of your poll. Your poll question simply stated "should the death penalty be used?" Do you mean in this specific case? Do you mean stoning as a means to execute a death sentence? Or do you mean should the death penalty be used as a generic instrument of enforcement in the institution of punishment? These are very different questions that will result in different responses to your poll.
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Tim Thorp
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Fortune wrote:
Ravenhoe wrote:
I cannot believe some people voted Yes on this one.


I agree.. would anyone who voted "Yes" care to explain their proposition?


Not in something as useless as an internet forum, I wouldn't.
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John O'Haver
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Maybe I'm a little dense today but is the question...

A) Am I in favor of the death penalty?

or

B) Am I in favor of stoning as a means of executing the death penalty?
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This was a very loaded unfair poll. Maybe if you make the poll more objective, you'd be less outraged with the answers.
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I favor the death penalty under certain restrictions. The person must be demonstrably accustomed (i.e., by testimony of witnesses who agree in marked detail) to keeping the law violation of which is resulting in the execution. The act must be committed in front of two witnesses with no relation to any party in the act and who have no vested interested in the act or the case itself. Those witnesses must have previously warned the person in front of other similar witnesses. Those witnesses must warn the person at the time of the act again and the person doing the act must acknowledge he/she understands the consequences of the act and its penalty but does not care while not being provoked or having any other extenuating circumstances including being temporarily in a state with diminished rationality.

When a case fits all these criteria, I've for the death penalty. Otherwise no.
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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thereofone wrote:
It should just be renamed "post-natal abortion" so all the wing nuts reverse their position.


I've never understood the death penalty/abortion comparison. It's not like the state is killing somebody because they can't afford to care for them (especially since we know it is more expensive).
 
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thereofone wrote:
It should just be renamed "post-natal abortion" so all the wing nuts reverse their position.


What if we are pro-choice and pro-death penalty?
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Koldfoot wrote:


Pro choicers will adamantly deny that they are pro abortion.



I'm not even sure most people who've had abortions are "pro-abortion". I'm sure that for the great majority of them it's an excruciating decision based on many factors, but not one they left the house one day thinking, someday I'm gonna get an abortion.

Just as most people aren't pro-killing someone, until of course that someone kills a loved one.

It's all about circumstances. And I believe there are circumstances that warrant both actions.
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Fortune
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KrackerJack wrote:

Fortune, I request clarification on the wording of your poll. Your poll question simply stated "should the death penalty be used?" Do you mean in this specific case? Do you mean stoning as a means to execute a death sentence? Or do you mean should the death penalty be used as a generic instrument of enforcement in the institution of punishment? These are very different questions that will result in different responses to your poll.


I mean in every case: should this barbaric form of "penalty" used at all? There is no substantial difference between any forms of death penalty since they all deprive humans of their most basic right: the right to live upon which all other rights are founded. If you take someone's life away, you take away all of their rights, including the right to human dignity, no matter if it's stoning to death or lethal injection.
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Christopher KrackerJack
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Fortune wrote:
I mean in every case: should this barbaric form of "penalty" used at all? There is no substantial difference between any forms of death penalty since they all deprive humans of their most basic right: the right to live upon which all other rights are founded. If you take someone's life away, you take away all of their rights, including the right to human dignity, no matter if it's stoning to death or lethal injection.


Thanks for the clarification. I disagree that there is no substantive difference between various methods of execution, however.

To your larger point, the death penalty is a tool of the larger institution of legal punishment. The state should not arbitrarily execute its citizens as many totalitarian states do (Iran, N. Korea, China, etc). However, when a citizen willfully commits an act that carries the death penalty as a potential sentence, isn't the death penalty their just reward? For example, if you commit murder in my home state, you should rightfully expect to receive the death penalty and the state has a duty to the rest of its citizens (those who have not committed such an act) to carry out the execution.
 
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Fortune
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MWChapel wrote:
This was a very loaded unfair poll. Maybe if you make the poll more objective, you'd be less outraged with the answers.


Thanks for your input. Which part of the poll do you think is loaded and why? I did not mean to make it "loaded", I expressed my opinion in the first post but that doesn't belong to the poll. Also, English is not my first language, so there may be wrong usage of words on my part, for which I apologize.

Dispaminite wrote:
I voted yes based on the question "Should it be used". I believe that there are circumstances in which the execution of certain indivuals, by the state, are justifiable.


Which are these circumstances in your opinion? And is it still justified when an innocent is executed?

KrackerJack wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. I disagree that there is no substantive difference between various methods of execution, however.


Lethal injection and stoning to death - both are violent means to murder someone in the name of "justice". In the case of lethal injection, by shifting the attention from the raw display of violence to the procedure itself like as if it was a medical procedure, the essence of death penalty is still the same: violence used to kill another person.

KrackerJack wrote:
To your larger point, the death penalty is a tool of the larger institution of legal punishment. The state should not arbitrarily execute its citizens as many totalitarian states do (Iran, N. Korea, China, etc). However, when a citizen willfully commits an act that carries the death penalty as a potential sentence, isn't the death penalty their just reward? For example, if you commit murder in my home state, you should rightfully expect to receive the death penalty and the state has a duty to the rest of its citizens (those who have not committed such an act) to carry out the execution.


What kind of benefit comes to society from executing someone apart from feeding the citizens' ego with the most primitive notion of revenge instead of putting those bastards to prison? (It is a notion so barbaric that in 1800BC the Hittites had massively liberalised their capital punishment laws, reserving it for crimes against the Gods (and therefore risking their wrath to the entire community).)
 
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EP Papa
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I said no because I don't support any system in which there is even the possibility of killing an innocent man. Imprisonment is necessary, even if it means that an innocent person may be held unfairly, but at least that mistake can be corrected. Death is final, with no room for error.
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demi wrote:
I said no because I don't support any system in which there is even the possibility of killing an innocent man. Imprisonment is necessary, even if it means that an innocent person may be held unfairly, but at least that mistake can be corrected. Death is final, with no room for error.


I would have to completely agree with you on this one. The death penalty is absolutely worthless compared to the incorrect killing of single innocent person.

Not to mention, I always thought that the death penalty was, quite frankly, the easy way out. The problem I see, is that murderers are allowed out of prison way too much.

Simply make the law state that if you are convicted of murder, you rot in prison till the day you die. Period, end of story. No possibility of parole. Ever.
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thereofone wrote:
demi wrote:
I said no because I don't support any system in which there is even the possibility of killing an innocent man. Imprisonment is necessary, even if it means that an innocent person may be held unfairly, but at least that mistake can be corrected. Death is final, with no room for error.


Combine that with the prison-industrial complex and their profit motive to have more people convicted/incarcerated and yeah....




Combine that with the ice cream-industrial complex and their profit motive to have more incarcerated people eating ice cream and yeah....
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Mac Mcleod
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When we can't afford to incarcerate criminals and when there are enough of them that people are dying left and right in society, then our resistance to the death penalty will drop as people we know or people they know are killed by criminals.

It takes a pretty far gone society to justify using a death penalty to clean it up. But there is a time and a place for it. And innocents will be killed in the process. But it is unavoidable at some point short of giving society over to the criminals in which case you have arbitrary murders.

For example- that guy in california who murdered 10 people was released multiple times because the state could no longer afford to incarcerate him. Right now we can "afford" to do that as a society. If it gets bad enough, the courts will get more pragmatic about living standards for criminals, where the death penalty line is, etc.

I'm against the death penalty but I recognize we can't afford to imprison everyone for ever. Once the murder rate rises such that my chance of being killed by the state is less than my chance of being killed by criminals then I will start to shift for the death penalty.
 
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How about some more school personnel, of the kind that likes to hang out with troubled kids and are good at giving them support, confidence and hope for the future. You'd free up so much space in the prisons 10 year from now, and without burning more citizens. Barbarians.
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Absolutely no, ever. Murder is murder, no matter who does it.
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HeinzGuderian wrote:
Absolutely no, ever. Murder is murder, no matter who does it.


Heh, we actually agree on this one even it is for different reasons.
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