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Commands & Colors: Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about Elephant combat against Leaders rss

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J.D. Schipper
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Question 1
The reference sheet states that Elephants:

"May ignore 1 hit and 1 flag when attacked by cavalry/chariot."

However, in the rulebook it says:

"Elephants vs. Cavalry and Chariots: Horses were easily frightened
by elephants in battle, hence the following rules: When a
cavalry or chariot unit is in Close Combat with an elephant unit,
the elephant unit may ignore one red square hit and one flag. If
a cavalry or chariot unit is forced to retreat when in battle with
an elephant unit, it must retreat one additional hex for each flag
rolled by the elephant unit."

What happens if a Light Calvary attacking an Elephant is adjacent to a leader and rolls a leader symbol and a flag? I know the flag can be ignored, but what about the leader symbol hit?

Although the rules explicitly state "red square hit," it seems that the Reference Sheet, the intent of the rules, and more intuitive way to interpret them would allow the elephant to ignore the leader hit. Furthermore, the rules under Leader Benefits use the words:

"converts leader symbol results into hits"

where conversion could be interpreted as changing them to a red square.

So, can the Elephant ignore that leader symbol?

Question 2
When an Elephant attacks a lone Leader in a hex, the Leader must evade. Elephants may re-roll "sword hits," but only roll 1 die when attacking a lone leader. If the Elephant rolls a sword, can it re-roll in the hopes of rolling a leader symbol and killing the leader? My understanding is that it may not because the sword was not a "hit." Is that correct?

Question 3
In the base set, Elephants seem to be the source of about 80% of my rules questions due to them being exceptions to nearly everything. It does not help that the Elephant rules are interspersed throughout the rule set rather than being consolidated into one location. Does anyone know of a resource I can download with the Elephant rules consolidated?

Thank you!!!
 
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Robin Reeve
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Vydar wrote:
Question 1So, can the Elephant ignore that leader symbol?
I would say that it can ignore it as the first ignored it the unit may ignore.
The leader symbol is not converted into a red hit. It is a hit (whilst leader symbols are not hits if no leader is present).

Vydar wrote:
Question 2
When an Elephant attacks a lone Leader in a hex, the Leader must evade. Elephants may re-roll "sword hits," but only roll 1 die when attacking a lone leader. If the Elephant rolls a sword, can it re-roll in the hopes of rolling a leader symbol and killing the leader? My understanding is that it may not because the sword was not a "hit." Is that correct?
I haven't the rules handy, but in other situations, when another type of unit can ignore one sword, the Elephant could reroll on a sword result - thus possibly inflicting a supplemental sword result (and a hit) against the defender. I would apply the same logics vs a leader.

Vydar wrote:
Question 3
In the base set, Elephants seem to be the source of about 80% of my rules questions due to them being exceptions to nearly everything. It does not help that the Elephant rules are interspersed throughout the rule set rather than being consolidated into one location. Does anyone know of a resource I can download with the Elephant rules consolidated?
The unit reference chart can help - but I don't know of any "Elephant synopsys" document : why not try create it yourself and post it in the files section ? It would be a nice contribution !
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Todd Rewoldt
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Robin, are you intentionally being mischievous?

Apologies, as I do not have the rulebook, nor any FAQ's to reference at the moment, but:

Q1: Only the first color hit may be ignored. The leader hits are not converted to color hits or the like. Think twice before attacking an Elephant unit with cavalry or chariot units, and I suggest thinking a third time if a leader isn't in tow

Q2: An Elephant unit never rerolls a Crossed Swords result that is ignored (and, to be more general, in any instance of a C&C game where a particular result is ignored, any ancillary effects of that result are also ignored). Since a lone leader ignores all results other than the purple helmet, no Crossed Swords results are rerolled.

Q3: Elephants are relatively complicated units, and a refresher now and again on their finer points certainly doesn't hurt, but in a nutshell:

Elephants provide support but do not receive it.

Elephants retreat one hex per banner result that is not ignored.

When taking banner results, before moving or attempting to move any retreated hexes, roll 2 dice against each adjacent unit and lone leader. Color results count as hits and purple helmet results capture lone leaders, all other results are ignored. If the Elephants retreat path is blocked and any units occupy the blocking hexes, after the "rampage" roll, remove one block per hex from that unit for each hex the Elephant was unable to retreat. If the unit is removed from the board, any unaccounted for hexes are then retreated by the E. The Elephant will not take any hits from unretreated hexes unless its path is blocked solely by impassable terrain or the backline of the board. (A lot to write there, but consistently applied rules, and the gist of them are, don't block your E's with your own units, rather with your opponent's devil )

When attacking reroll all Crossed Swords results that are not ignored and when defending ignore all Crossed Swords results rolled against it.

When attacking, the base attack dice value is equal to the base attack dice value of the target unit. Exceptions are Warriors and other Elephants, 3 dice, and lone leaders, 1 die. Any bonuses and/or limitations are then placed as normal.

When facing Cavalry or Chariot units and attacking, Banner results that are not ignored incur an additional hex to the retreat value, e.g., light cavalry retreat 5 hexes instead of 4. When defending in close combat the first color result and banner result may be ignored.

Yeah, lots to digest there, certainly a walnut if not a coconut

EDIT's I-IV: added the "trample" effect to the E synopsis and elaborated the lame "nut" joke. And while I am at it, Happy HeroScaping, Vydar

EDIT V: added that E's take 1 hex per banner result to the E synopsis.
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J.D. Schipper
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Wow! Two completely opposite responses...

Re: Question 1
Robin wrote:
The leader symbol is not converted into a red hit.


If the leader symbol is not converted to a red hit, then I think Todd has it right by the letter of the rules--it can't be ignored. I don't like this as it seems like yet another thing to remember about the elephant and I'm not sure it corresponds to the intent of the rules. Are we sure this is the official ruling?

Re: Question 2
I have the 2nd edition rules, but I found the 3rd edition online. It seems a bit more clear on this:

"Each sword symbol an elephant unit rolls in Close Combat
scores 1 hit. Furthermore, each battle die producing a sword
hit is rolled again for possible additional symbol hits, sword
hits, or flag results..." (pg. 11)

"However, if the elephant is attacking a unit that, due to terrain or
its own ability, can ignore sword hits, you do not re-roll them." (pg. 11)

I'm not sure I would classify "ignoring swords" as a "leader ability," but using the same principle, it appears that you wouldn't get to re-roll swords. That means there is only a 1 in 6 chance for elephants to trample a lone leader.

Re: Question 3
Thanks for the summary, Todd. It is also worth noting that elephants only retreat 1 hex per flag rather than their full movement of 2. I may consider creating an elephant document by clipping each of the elephant rules out of the 3rd edition. I'm not sure if it would be legal for me to post that as I still haven't figured out copyright laws on these things.

If anyone finds a definitive answer for Question 1 and can refer me to the answer, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks for the responses!
 
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Steve N
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toddrew wrote:
When taking banner results...purple helmet results capture lone leaders


What?!? Really?!? Another rule I missed?

[runs to rulebook]
 
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Peter Donnelly
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This thing about elephants ignoring a hit from cavalry was ambiguous in earlier editions, but it's pretty clear now:

Quote:
When a cavalry or chariot unit is in Close Combat with an elephant unit, the elephant unit may ignore one red square hit and one flag.
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Phill Webb
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ReggieMcFly wrote:
toddrew wrote:
When taking banner results...purple helmet results capture lone leaders


What?!? Really?!? Another rule I missed?

[runs to rulebook]


Not really. he just means that Elephant Rampage can hit Leaders that are alone as it is just like battling a lone leader.

Phill
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Todd Rewoldt
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Vydar wrote:

Re: Question 3
Thanks for the summary, Todd. It is also worth noting that elephants only retreat 1 hex per flag rather than their full movement of 2. I may consider creating an elephant document by clipping each of the elephant rules out of the 3rd edition. I'm not sure if it would be legal for me to post that as I still haven't figured out copyright laws on these things.


I knew I would skim over one of the obvious ones Editting my first post to reflect this.

I would not worry one iota about copyright infringement from posting an "all in one place" compendium of the Elephant rules. Certainly ask permission of GMT before doing so to be more comfortable, but similar to Robin's reaction, I would be surprised if it is met with any sentiment other than gratefulness.

Quote:

If anyone finds a definitive answer for Question 1 and can refer me to the answer, I'd appreciate it.


I should have time later today to hunt down the rule and/or FAQ-ish response that details this (though I won't be disappointed if anyone beats me to it ), but I am willing to stake my entire C&C credibility on the answer being: ignores first color result (i.e. Red Square) rolled against it in close combat - no effect on any Purple Helmet results. And just in case it isn't coming through, while I am dead serious about the answer, that was an unnecessary attempt at ridiculous overstatement

EDIT: Pete's rule quote is from the 3rd edition rules, and as he said is much clearer.
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Steve N
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Freeloading Phill wrote:

Not really. he just means that Elephant Rampage can hit Leaders that are alone as it is just like battling a lone leader.

Phill


Oh. Ok. Thanks.cool
 
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Robin Reeve
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BTW, I reckon my answer was wrong. modest
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J.D. Schipper
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Robin wrote:
Vydar wrote:
Does anyone know of a resource I can download with the Elephant rules consolidated?
why not try create it yourself and post it in the files section ? It would be a nice contribution !


GMT gave me permission to post this file I created:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/57629/elephant-rules-c...

I went through the entire 3rd Edition Rule Book and picked out all the occurrences of "Elephant." Then I merged all repeated rules and removed examples to streamline the document. This should have everything you need to play elephants correctly.
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Robin Reeve
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Vydar wrote:
GMT gave me permission to post this file I created
Thank you Sir !
That is a nice contribution ! thumbsup
 
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