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Subject: Played 15 games at WBC (so far) rss

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Chad Weaver
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Rio Grande Games provided a copy of Prosperity for play at WBC. I've been parked at the table for hours at a time getting several plays in. Here are some observations:

d10-1Heard "10 is the new 7" more than once

d10-2Scored 94 in a four-player game once!

d10-3Won a wild game 5-3-3-0. King's Court/Mountebank makes people cry.

d10-4Participated in several discussions about how many coppers should be in the supply at the start. The concept is out there that money should be endless. I can't find support for it in the rules.

d10-5Played a game with a kid who was playing his first Dominion game ever. I think when he plays basic Dominion it will be like driving a Ford Taurus after only ever driving a Top Fuel Dragster!

d10-6There seem to be more playable strategies in each game than previously.

d10-7Big(ger?) Money strategy is not a winner on any setup. (TBD?)

d10-85/2 makes me sad. 4/3 is almost always either Quarry/Silver or Monument/Watchtower or Bishop/Silver.

d10-9If you do get 5/2, and you buy a Mint with your 5, you will lose. Especially if you don't buy a copper with your 2 buy!

d10-1d10-0A quick engine to get to 8 can beat a slower-to-build Colony deck.

d10-1d10-1If you are going to buy Hoard, buy a lot of them.

d10-1d10-2Grand Market sucks.

d10-1d10-3King's Court + Goons = 17 VP minimum.

d10-1d10-4I'm ridiculously excited for a game with Cellar, Counting House, Gardens, and multiple buys.
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Max Maloney
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chadw09 wrote:
d10-4Participated in several discussions about how many coppers should be in the supply at the start. The concept is out there that money should be endless. I can't find support for it in the rules.

Didn't Donald Vacarino post here that his concept for the game was that money was unlimited? I also recall him saying he has accepted that the nature of the game is that they cannot be unlimited in actual play and that he prefers to keep the rules simple so they still count as depleted supply piles.
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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chadw09 wrote:

d10-4Participated in several discussions about how many coppers should be in the supply at the start. The concept is out there that money should be endless. I can't find support for it in the rules.


It's finite. Players who want money to be endless probably also find games that end on three piles to be frustrating.

Quote:

d10-7Big(ger?) Money strategy is not a winner on any setup. (TBD?)


Big Money's problem has always been that of granularity; $4 and $5 are bad numbers to get because they decrease the chance of you getting $6. Now $8 is also a bad number to get.

Quote:

d10-85/2 makes me sad. 4/3 is almost always either Quarry/Silver or Monument/Watchtower or Bishop/Silver.


Try a Vault.

Quote:

d10-1d10-3King's Court + Goons = 17 VP minimum.


You're playing it incorrectly. Just because you played the Goons card three times does not mean there are three Goons in play. There is still only one Goons in play.

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Gary Smolinski
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Regarding #4: Coins are a part of the supply and count as a pile that can be exhausted towards the 3 pile game-end condition. I think it's in the basic rules from what I remember.

#8. More explanation on the 5/2 comment please; is it counterproductive in Prosperity to buy coppers and/or estates with the 2-coin turn? And Monument/Watchtower is a surprise...I didn't figure a terminal action like Monument would be all that strong.

#9: If you buy a copper with the 2 buy, does that help Mint?

#12: Why? It looks really good and it's drawback doesn't seem to be all that relevant given all the treasure types and +coin cards available.

#13: Are you sure you played that right? The FAQ states that if you KC a Goons you still only have 1 Goons "in play". So if you get 3 buys from Goons + your standard turn buy, at best you'd get +4 VP.

#14: Cellar-Counting House...whoa. Dare I say that Woodcutter is looking better with Prosperity?
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Chad Weaver
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onigame wrote:
[q="chadw09"]
Quote:

d10-1d10-3King's Court + Goons = 17 VP minimum.


You're playing it incorrectly. Just because you played the Goons card three times does not mean there are three Goons in play. There is still only one Goons in play.



Makes sense. We never looked it up! Ah well, still a fun combo for the +6 and +3 buys.
 
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Chad Weaver
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phoenix1967 wrote:
Regarding #4: Coins are a part of the supply and count as a pile that can be exhausted towards the 3 pile game-end condition. I think it's in the basic rules from what I remember.

#8. More explanation on the 5/2 comment please; is it counterproductive in Prosperity to buy coppers and/or estates with the 2-coin turn? And Monument/Watchtower is a surprise...I didn't figure a terminal action like Monument would be all that strong.


An estate on Turn 1/2 will clog your deck like always, and a copper is a bad choice IMHO unless you are working a Counting House strategy.

Quote:
#9: If you buy a copper with the 2 buy, does that help Mint?


Yes, but it still starts a bit slowly. After two turns, you will have a Mint, 3 Estates, and 3 Coppers. Until you get 3 Coppers in one hand, you can't get a Silver. Until you get a Silver, you can't Mint a Silver. Slow to Silver means slow to Gold and slow to Platinum when it comes to Mint.

Quote:
#12: Why? It looks really good and it's drawback doesn't seem to be all that relevant given all the treasure types and +coin cards available.


I just haven't seen it used effectively yet. You can't get it too early, so it is hard to get enough of them to chain early enough to be a winning strategy. I'm sure it will combo well in some mixed games (I only played all Prosperity kingdom card games so far) but I haven't seen it work. Again, all my comments are based on just a handful of games so far.

Quote:
#13: Are you sure you played that right? The FAQ states that if you KC a Goons you still only have 1 Goons "in play". So if you get 3 buys from Goons + your standard turn buy, at best you'd get +4 VP.


You are correct sir. We were playing it incorrectly.
Quote:


#14: Cellar-Counting House...whoa. Dare I say that Woodcutter is looking better with Prosperity?


I think you are right about that.
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David Stormer Jr
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just to hurt everyones brains.
KC a KC with 3 Goons
18 coins
10 buys
and +3 VP per buy

Near impossible to setup.
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Mike Mayer
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Dormammu wrote:
chadw09 wrote:
d10-4Participated in several discussions about how many coppers should be in the supply at the start. The concept is out there that money should be endless. I can't find support for it in the rules.

Didn't Donald Vacarino post here that his concept for the game was that money was unlimited? I also recall him saying he has accepted that the nature of the game is that they cannot be unlimited in actual play and that he prefers to keep the rules simple so they still count as depleted supply piles.


The Intrigue rules say the coppers/silvers/golds are intended to be abundant enough to not run out (hence you can freely combine the treasures from Intrigue and the base set), but if any of the coins do run out, then you count it as a depleted pile.

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tim meyer
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nusku42 wrote:
just to hurt everyones brains.
KC a KC with 3 Goons
18 coins
10 buys
and +3 VP per buy

Near impossible to setup.



holy toledo!
 
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Ben Ford
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Prosperity only games are likely to lead to Grand Market being harder to use.

Counting House, Goons, and Mountebank will lead to there being more Copper than normal be in player's decks. A Prosperity-only game is likely to have at least one of those.

The 7 cost cards also throw a wrench into the plans. A lot of the times that you have 6 to spend, it will actually be a 7 coin hand with one Copper. So instead of the easy choice between Grand Market and Gold, you will have to choose between Grand Market and one of the powerful 7 cost cards.

It might also be tough to trash the Coppers out of your deck in just Prosperity. Unless you get the right situation to use Forge or the very blunt Mint, the other card trashers only get one Copper at a time.
 
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Chad Weaver
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I played a few more yesterday, this time with 5 from Prosperity and 5 from Seaside. I built a ridiculous deck with Fishing Villages, Outposts, a couple Wharfs (Wharves?), Monuments, Rabbles, and Ghost Ship.

My turns were quite long, and there were usually two of them thanks to the Outpost. Fun for me, not so much for my opponents!

Ghost Ship then Rabble is fun--the Ghost Ship wrecks an opponent's hand so he or she puts a Gold and a Platinum on top to save for next hand, then you Rabble them into the discard pile!
 
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Charles Waterman
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onigame wrote:
[q="chadw09"]


You're playing it incorrectly. Just because you played the Goons card three times does not mean there are three Goons in play. There is still only one Goons in play.



LOL I can hear it now - Bowery Boys accents comin out when the Goons is in play. "Hey what is dat Goons doin' dere? Dere is only one Goons in dis game and dat's me!" "Quit discombobulatin your oral cavity, Satch!"
 
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Kelly Krieble
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chadw09 wrote:
I played a few more yesterday, this time with 5 from Prosperity and 5 from Seaside. I built a ridiculous deck with Fishing Villages, Outposts, a couple Wharfs (Wharves?), Monuments, Rabbles, and Ghost Ship.

My turns were quite long, and there were usually two of them thanks to the Outpost. Fun for me, not so much for my opponents!

Ghost Ship then Rabble is fun--the Ghost Ship wrecks an opponent's hand so he or she puts a Gold and a Platinum on top to save for next hand, then you Rabble them into the discard pile!


I think I played in that game with you..

The ghost ships hurt.

Also, I disagree with the usefulness of Grand Market, especiallyt when you combine it with King's Court.

Anyway, my favorite card over the weekend was Contraband - I just love trying to bluff people to call out the wrong card.
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Adam Kunsemiller
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nusku42 wrote:
just to hurt everyones brains.
KC a KC with 3 Goons
18 coins
10 buys
and +3 VP per buy

Near impossible to setup.


I was particularly tickled by how the watchtower interacted with goon. For example, in the one game I played, I had a hand with KC, Goon, and Watchtower. I don't remember what the other two cards were, but essentially I KC'ed the goon, and then used the watchtower to trash all the incoming copper I was buying, but still take all the VPs! I loved using it to trash things I was buying! I had 77 points that game, closest to me was 60 I think.
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Chris P.
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chadw09 wrote:
d10-85/2 makes me sad. 4/3 is almost always either Quarry/Silver or Monument/Watchtower or Bishop/Silver.
Not sure about Monument/Watchtower together since both are terminal. Bishop is also a card I think I'd much rather have *you* buy at the start than buy it myself. Everytime you use it, I can trash something too, but hopefully I'm ahead of you now on the growth curve to make the VP you're getting irrelevant.

chadw09 wrote:
d10-9If you do get 5/2, and you buy a Mint with your 5, you will lose. Especially if you don't buy a copper with your 2 buy!
As nice as it would be to trash out 5 coppers at once I can see the difficulty in bootstrapping up afterwards heh. There's only a 29% chance of pulling all three coppers in turn 3 and you could waste a number of turns trying to get there. And then you have to pull the Mint with that silver.

If mixing with other sets, though, having an Embargo, Lighthouse, Secret Chamber or Pawn available as a 2 point should help ensure you don't have to take too long get a silver.
Secret Chamber - 71% chance to pull your two point buy in turn 3; Secret Chamber guarantees you can buy a silver or even a $4 treasure like Quarry.
Embargo - 71% * 93% (chance to pull at least one copper as well) = 66% chance to get a silver. Chance to have $4 is 40%.
Pawn (played as +card/+coin) - 71% * 67% (chance to pull both coppers from 6 cards into 5 slots) = 47%. If your hand was Pawn, Mint, Copper and 2 Estates you could also play it as +action/+buy and with Mint generate 3 copper, but you'd lose some of the long term benefits from the early copper trash.
Lighthouse - 29% chance of turn 3 silver, 41% chance for turn 4 silver, if you buy no more coppers (if lighthouse is pulled in turn 3, then only way to fail is for a copper to be the one card not in your turn 4 hand - majority of turn 4 failure cases are from lighthouse missing turn 3). Those numbers don't look great, but its still a 70% chance to get the silver by turn 4.

With cards like Cellar, Courtyard or Moat, I'd probably buy the third copper first and hope to hit the 29% chance of three coppers in turn 3. The downside is 14% of the time you'll have less than two coppers in turn 3 and can't buy the two pointer, but that's acceptable risk.

A Haven drawn in phase 3, though, is guaranteed to be able to be able to put an extra copper into turn 4 for a 67% chance at silver. Even if the Haven doesn't show up until turn 4, the fact that it can replace itself and draw another card gives a 26% to buy a silver (otherwise haven a copper and odds in turn 5 are good). It works out to a 55% chance for a silver in turn 4 and the Haven has ongoing use in trying to get your mint together with your best coins for doubling.

I'd also take Chapel as the 2 point over the immediate copper just to start trashing the estates that much quicker.

chadw09 wrote:
d10-1d10-2Grand Market sucks.
I just haven't seen it used effectively yet. You can't get it too early, so it is hard to get enough of them to chain early enough to be a winning strategy.
The hardest part is probably getting the first one, once you have that it can help to buy more. Quarry would seem to be the key to getting them early. With a Quarry you only need to find three more coins from non-copper sources.

Two quarries by themselves can buy a grand market. Quarry + Silver + Talisman would get you *two* grand markets which would rock. A Quarry could also quickly help you get a Mountebank or Goons to help pay for the GM, but drawing all three together would be the tricky bit. In the Talisman case, I'd open Silver+Talisman and then hope to get 2 Quarries from the Talisman turn and go from there.

Trashing is always a big help in trying to set up combos and both the Loan and Bishop could provide the one coin extra needed to go with a Quarry and Silver as well as getting rid of those coppers.

Forge and Expand seem like they would also synergize well with Quarry and could therefore be the way you get the first Market.

But the best card to go with the Quarry looks to be Vault. Draw those two together and you have your Grand Market. The card draw gives you a chance to pull a Quarry into the Vault hand and even if you got hit by goons you'll still have 3 cards to discard for 3 coins.
 
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