Sebastian Blanco
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So, I got a 30-minute demo of the LOTR card game at GenCon last week. I hadn't heard a single thing about this game, just saw a sign for it at the FFG booth and went, "hey, what?"

The demo decks were both the same, and I don't know how much variety there will be in hero selection (we were each able to use the same three). The idea of being able to build between 1-4 decks and then taking them to my gaming group to just play. I get the fun (hopefully) of building the decks, and we all get the fun of playing. When I travel, I can take a deck or two with me to play solo, so that's another benefit.

Gameplay looked good, with each player getting to make his own decisions while also being able to work together. Of course, we were both learning the game, so it might have a very different dynamic when one player knows what to do and the other doesn't. Still, this is inherent in all co-op games, so I can't blame the LOTR card game for this. Of course, I wanted to read more about how many cards will be in the base set and what sort of variety there will be both for player decks and Shadow encounter possibilities. I'm sure FFG will find a way to keep printing more cards to get more money if the games takes off.

I played the Decipher LOTR CCG and liked it (well, until Shadows, then my group lost interest). Since then, I haven't gotten into any other blind-buy CCG/TCG and I don't ever plan on doing so again. I did play Anachronism because you knew what you were getting and games took 5 minutes. I still feel like my Anachronism money was well-spent because the learning curve is low and I can get a lot of gaming fun out of my cards. I feel like the LOTR LCG *might* be the game to pull me back into regular card buying and deckbuilding, because, as others have said, it keeps some of the best aspects of CCGs – building decks, expanding card pool – and eliminates the negatives – needing to find other players who are as into it as you are, booster packs – with a license I'm already into. I probably would've bought a starter pack had it been available at GenCon, but it wasn't and now I have a few months to think it over whether I want to get into this game. From my one play, I think I do. You guys?
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Mikko Karvonen
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I think they have already announced that there will be monthly expansions packs available. If Warhammer: Invasion is any indication, most of them will be about $10 for 25-30 cards and bigger expansions with around 100 new cards will be coming out two times a year. Quite manageable, especially since you really don't need those extra cards, unless you want more variety than you are having at any given moment or are a completionist. I've actually found that restricting the amount of expansion packs you buy is a good thing, as it keeps the game more approachable for the new players.

I'm pretty much on the same boat with you regarding collectable games and I love LCG format. It's a very good way of getting that deckbuilding fix without going crazy with a proper CCG, while still making it easy to introduce to new/occasional players.

And I'm almost 100% sure I'll be buying into this. The format, FFG production values and LotR license sound like an unresistible combination for me, unless the gameplay bombs really badly.
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D6Frog wrote:


That is a ton of cash every year for that one game. Not so cheap now is it?


Definitely not cheap, but potentially cheaper than a CCG. Plus with solo play, you are not required from a competitive standpoint to buy the expansions or every monthly pack.
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Joshua Delahunty
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D6Frog wrote:
just remember, this game is not as cheap as you think it is.

Using Warhammer Invasion as a guide you can expect to drop $280 the first year alone...

Core game $40
2x Large Expansions $60(30x2)
12x Small Expansions $180 ($15x12)

That is a ton of cash every year for that one game. Not so cheap now is it?


Which is it for small expansions? $10 or $15?

World of Warcraft is about $15 a month plus an average of about $40 a year for expansions plus electricity and internet costs. Plenty of folks swing that.

With an LCG, you can play by candlelight. But you better add the cost of sleeves so they -- hopefully -- survive the Great Disaster so you become very popular, post-apoc speaking.
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Sebastian Blanco
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D6Frog wrote:
Except the core set. It has lots of singles so you might actually need to buy multiple of it.


Yeah, the idea of buying multiple core sets if pretty off-putting. If they're, what $30 each, and you need 3 for a play set (or 6 for two players to have a playset of every card) that's stupid, and likely to make me not want to be a completist with this game. I'll still probably try it out, but why can't they just put a full play set into one box and sell that?
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theotherring wrote:
but why can't they just put a full play set into one box and sell that?


That is a good question and mine as well. It's one of the reasons I resisted getting into Game of Thrones. Again, I am hoping the solo nature of it diminishes the effect of the singles.

Can anyone who has Game of Thrones or Warhammer LCG relate if those cards that are singles in the core set are of high value?
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Rik Van Horn
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At the bottom of the list thematically that will ever pique my interest anymore is anything LotR.

Loved the books when I was 14 in 1966, loved the movies, but I can't take anymore LotR mania. There's just too much crap around using that theme.
I don't want to bother sifting through it anymore.

PS Please die Star Wars too. Worst science fiction universe ever.
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James Hébert
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Can someone flesh out the acronyms for me? I've heard of 2 of these 3...
thanks.

XCG (___________ card game)

TCG (___________ card game)

CCG (collectible card game)

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Brian Sturk
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I believe TCG is "tradable card game", no idea what XCG is unless X is a variable.

Looking forward to seeing the rules for this game!
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Sebastian Blanco
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Yes, the "X" was supposed to be a variable, an all-encompassing term that includes CCG/TCG/LCG and whatever else people use.
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That's a terrible idea if they go forward with 1 copy of some cards in the big expansions. It TOTALLY defeats the purpose of a LCG. That will make the game more expansive to collect than a freakin CCG and the whole point was to move from that outdated model. WTF FFG?????
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D6Frog wrote:
But yea, it seems like you would need 3 core sets and thus 3 huge boxes on the shelf.


You could always put all the components into one of the boxes and throw the other two away. That is what I did with Call of Cthulhu LCG and I can still fit my whole collection in (3x Core, 2x Secrets of Arkham, almost full playset of all Asylum packs released so far). Granted, I am not keeping the excess Cthulhu figures in there.
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Shane Is Board
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Simple solution, buy one Core set, enjoy those cards and build with them, then buy the expansions if desired. What you spend on the game is entirely up to *you*, not them. It's cheap if you let it be cheap. Being a "completionist" has nothing to do with it; you have a complete game in your hands with a Core set...getting a play set together doesn't make it any more or less complete than it already was.
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Shane Sather wrote:
Simple solution, buy one Core set, enjoy those cards and build with them, then buy the expansions if desired. What you spend on the game is entirely up to *you*, not them. It's cheap if you let it be cheap. Being a "completionist" has nothing to do with it; you have a complete game in your hands with a Core set...getting a play set together doesn't make it any more or less complete than it already was.


My thoughts exactly. The "need" to have 3 of each card didn't even occur to me before reading this thread. That hasn't kept Warhammer: Invasion from being maybe the best new game I've played this year. For me, limited availability of some card is just part of the nature of the game. It means that you cannot just stack the deck with a handful of different cards, but actually need to put bit more thoughts into it and use a wider variety of resources.

I can understand the desire if you are going to compete in tournaments, but like I said above, limited card pool is only a good thing when most of your opponents are new to the game or only play every now and then with your cards.
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Cameron McKenzie
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FFG switched to the "3 copies of each card" after the core set of Warhammer: Invasion core set came out. It wasn't economical for them to go back and release a new more expensive core set with 3 of every card, nor was it economical for them to release a core set "supplement" with 2 of every card that were only singles in the core set.

Seeing as how lotr:tcg is being released after this change, it wouldn't surprise me if they released it with triplicate cards. On the other hand, the game is cooperative and it is possible that cards that come in singles are only intended to be used as such.

In the competitive CCGs, you may find yourself against any kind of opponent. You cannot simply pretend that singles are universally singular in decks, because you may play against an opponent where that isn't the case.

Since you are playing cooperatively, you aren't really missing out if you just accept that singular cards should stay singular. If somebody somewhere else gets duplicates of these cards, it won't have any affect on how you play the game, because you aren't playing with them.
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I'm a little shocked that even given that only a very small number of people here have even had a demo of the game and we've got no clue as to what's going to be in the core set or what the deck construction rules will be. Why everyone seems to be assuming that you'll even need 3 copies of every card in the core set to allow you to build any deck type.

I can see no reason while I want 3 copies of each mission, also as I understand the heroes are picked at the start of the game, If you can't put extras in your deck you don't need 3 of those. I seem to recall someone posting here or over at FFG that unique is truely so and no just for you deck. So like that you don't even need 2 copies of a given hero for you set to allow the 2 part of the 1-2 players.

Also as this isn't a dueling game like all the other LCG, I'm not quite getting all this I must have talk. Sure if you want all the cards then you'll have to but all the sets, but just as easily you could just buy the core set and stick with that.

You still be able to play with other poeple in this co-op game. And unless there's power creap as the sets go on, if the games been designed well it should even effect you in tournaments to too great an extent.

Of cause I could be completely wrong...
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Joel Joslin
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The Core Sets for the LCGs don't have 3x of each card because they come with four decks that are fully playable out of the box, about 200 cards in all. If they were to include a complete playset, they would either have to cut down on the number of decks or seriously hike up the price of a set. And really, you don't NEED 3 core sets or even all the expansions unless you're planning to play competitively.
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D6Frog wrote:
Lets put it this way, if you are going to buy 1000s of cards, then you had better be able to build lots of decks...not just a few core decks that you have to keep changing cards out of.

Traditional CCGs you can do this. I am not so sure about LCGs.



My own experience would suggest that while I might be able to build lots of deck, it isn't lots of good decks or lots of decks that can do well in serious competative play.

Or maybe I was just unlucky.

Also in terms of the 12 Heroes, well that's just what's in the first core set. I'd be very shocked if FFG don't release more in the future.
Just like there's only 4 quests, and 3 specified, pre-constructed shadow decks.

It looks to me that LotR is going to be a bit different to all the LCGs that FFG have released so far, when it comes to cards you need and deck construction for a number of reaons.
1) It's co-op and not dueling, as the other 3 are.
2) Your deck is only half (or even 1/3) the story in terms of cards used for a game.
3) If you choose not to buy the expansions that contain the new quest and shadow deck cards, you don't "need" to buy the expansions that contain the "free peoples" cards that specifically work against them

Personally I'm hoping the core game design and the maths behind it are strong enough that point 3) isn't even an issue.

This is of cause all pure speculataion, as untill I've seen more of the card set and actually read the rules I'm not convinced I'll even buy the core set.

Even if I do they distribution for thh expansions going forward will determin what if anything I buy
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Seeing as how the new LotR LCG is designed for co-op or solo play, I don't see any kind of need to purchase triples of anything unless it is necessary for the card balance (or building multiple decks) to do so. It doesn't seem to be a game you could play competitively. So, unless you are all gung-ho about defeating THE GAME at all costs, what is the point of spending the extra hundreds to own all those duplicates?

I am seriously considering picking this one up, because it sounds like something I just might be able to get my casual gamer friends (and perhaps even non-gamers) to try out. Plus, I missed the bus on those other cool LotR CCGs that came out previously, so the LCG makes more sense to me, since I do dig the theme and characters and all. It's just a shame that it won't have much to do with the epic feel of the trilogy. Sounds like it will feel a bit more like The Hobbit (which is still a great book, of course), so it's still got a big appeal to me!
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[q="D6FrogOr if you want to fully explore Middle Earth. That is the point of the game exploring Middle Earth...not just twiddling cards. Then you need to buy all the sets to travel across Middle Earth. Ortherwise you are stuck in Mirkwood. And I'm sorry, there is much more to Middle Earth than that.

And if you are a huge fan of the books, you will want to explore all of Middle-Earth. That is why MECCG is so addicting...it is literally a RPG in your hand.

[/q]

here is where you way well have hit the nail on the head. To see more of Middle Earth you'll have to buy the expansions. I'm waiting to see just how much like quest across Middle Earth this new game actually feels like.

Also I can't see anyone doing a LotR xCG, which to me will be as good as MECCG.
 
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jhebert wrote:
Can someone flesh out the acronyms for me? I've heard of 2 of these 3...
thanks.

XCG (EXTRA card game) They make you pay for a bunch of cards you'll never use.
TCG (Terrible card game) A lousy card game you gotta’ have because it's collectable.

CCG (Cash card game) A card game that requires huge sums of cash to be competitive at.
LCG (Lying card game) A card game that looks deceivingly cheap but will rob your wallet with expansions.




Answers in BOLD.
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Christian T. Petersen
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D6Frog wrote:
Bokrug wrote:
Seeing as how the new LotR LCG is designed for co-op or solo play, I don't see any kind of need to purchase triples of anything unless it is necessary for the card balance (or building multiple decks) to do so. It doesn't seem to be a game you could play competitively. So, unless you are all gung-ho about defeating THE GAME at all costs, what is the point of spending the extra hundreds to own all those duplicates?

I am seriously considering picking this one up, because it sounds like something I just might be able to get my casual gamer friends (and perhaps even non-gamers) to try out. Plus, I missed the bus on those other cool LotR CCGs that came out previously, so the LCG makes more sense to me, since I do dig the theme and characters and all. It's just a shame that it won't have much to do with the epic feel of the trilogy. Sounds like it will feel a bit more like The Hobbit (which is still a great book, of course), so it's still got a big appeal to me!

The need for triples etc. is so you can build more than one deck.

Why buy 1000+ cards and only be able to build 1 deck or 4 so-so decks. That sucks.

Who wants to have to keep ripping a few decks apart and adding in new monsters/regions just so you can travel there when you should be able to build 10 decks that have different themes and just grab them from the shelf. You should be able to do that after spending $300 on cards.


So, guys, a few clarifications.

You will be able to build a large variety of decks out of the Core Set, and more with the Adventure Packs, as they release. In fact, you will want to experiment with lots of decks combination with the core set alone, as you try to defeat the Quests (some of which are exceptionally hard and epic).

I mentioned the following during our Inflight report at GEN CON, and it bears telling here.

FFG has switched to the "complete pack" model with our monthly chapter/battle/asylum/adventure packs. This means that one pack will get you a complete play set i.e. 3 of each of the 20 new cards (whether you're a casual player or a competitive player).

The Core Set is different. Why?

Because as a publisher we have one of two choices for the Core Set: Either include all cards in triplicate, OR provide a much greater variety of cards.

Because we want to make the core sets a great stand-alone experience with tons of options and repeated play value, we have decided to on a greater *variety* of cards.

This means that casual players will be able to get great value and repeat play from the Core Set w/o needing any additional core sets or adventure packs.

For the non-casual crowd, this means a few LCG releases (such as the core set) will be required to purchase in triplicate to have a complete play-set of every single card.

This is the direction FFG has chosen to go, it may not be to your preference, but I hope the above makes sense. In either case, if you do feel your play preference requires you to purchase 3 core sets, I will have you remember than a purchase of 3 core sets (being $119.85 at retail) is still less expensive than buying even *a single* booster display of Magic (of which 3-4 would be required to get a complete play-set, and not even guaranteed at that.)

To give you the real breakdown of terms:

CCG = Collectible Card Game = Random (i.e. Blind buy) purchase
TCG = Trading Card Game = [Another name for CCG's, the original name, in fact]
LCG = Living Card Game = FFG's proprietary mark for non Random (i.e. Blind Buy) customizable card games that feature a core set, augmented by small and frequent releases (and in such, making it "living" i.e. dynamic and ever-changing).

XCG = (first time i've seen this) "X" being the variable for the first initial (so meaning all the above.)

Thanks,
cP
FFG
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Thank you Christian. I applaud FFG for going to this model. Good luck with the game. It looked gorgeous at GenCon.
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Sebastian Blanco
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Christian,

I really appreciate you explaining FFG's thoughts on this model. I understand the tough decisions companies have to make all the time, and think you've taken a legitimate path. Of course, I'd like to get a full playset for $15, but that doesn't work for you. So we'll compromise at $40 for most and see how the game plays. From the demo, I think it's got a lot of promise, and I hope seeing all the cards and the rules will bear this out. I look forward to trying out *one* core set – if it's an amazing game, then maybe I'll go for a full play set.

Oh, and I came up with XCG as I titled this post. Feel free to use it

Sebastian
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Cameron McKenzie
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I only wish that there were a "supplement" pack that contained extras of cards which were not triplicated in the core set, so you could buy the core and supplement and have three of everything.
I know this has been discussed and that you have considered this idea before. I'm just just saying that I think it's a good idea.
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