True Blue Jon
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As always, I welcome any and all discussion from any kind of theist and/or atheist. What wisdom is found in the book of Proverbs?

This translation is taken from the Tanach found here:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The...

Mishlei - Proverbs - Chapter 1

1. The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel, [are]; 2. To know wisdom and discipline, to comprehend words of understanding; 3. To receive the discipline of wisdom, righteousness, justice, and equity; 4. To give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth. 5. Let the wise man hear and increase learning. The understanding man shall acquire wise counsels 6. to understand an allegory and a figure, the words of the wise and their riddles.

7. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and discipline. 8. Hearken, my son, to the discipline of your father, and do not forsake the instruction of your mother; 9. for they are a wreath of grace for your head and a necklace for your neck.

10. My son, if sinners entice you, do not consent; 11. if they say, "Come with us; let us lie in wait for blood; let us hide for the innocent, without cause; 12. let us swallow them up alive like the grave, and the whole ones like those who descend into the pit. 13. We will find all precious possessions; we will fill our houses with plunder. 14. Cast your lot among us; we will all have one purse" 15. my son, do not go on the way with them; restrain your foot from their path, 16. for their feet run to evil, and they hasten to shed blood. 17. For the net is scattered without cause in the eyes of all winged fowl, 18. but they lie in wait for their blood; they hide for their lives. 19. So are the ways of everyone who commits robbery; it will take away the life of its owner.

20. Wisdoms shout in the street; in the squares she gives forth her voice. 21. She calls at the head of the noisy streets; she utters her words at the entrances of the gates in the city; 22. "How long will you naive ones love naivete, and the scoffers covet scoffing, and the fools hate knowledge? 23. You shall repent because of my reproof; behold! I will pour out my spirit to you; I will let you know my words. 24. Since I called you and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one listened, 25. and you have made nothing of all my advice, and you did not desire my reproof 26. I, too, will laugh at your calamity, I will scoff when what you fear comes; 27. when your fear comes like a storm, and your calamity comes like a whirlwind; when trouble and straits come upon you. 28. Then they will call me, and I will not answer; they shall seek me, and they shall not find me. 29. Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord; 30. they did not desire my advice, they despised all my reproof- 31. they will eat of the fruit of their way, and from their counsels they will be sated, 32. for the backsliding of the naive shall slay them, and the tranquility of the fools shall cause them to perish. 33. But he who hearkens to me shall dwell confidently and shall be tranquil from the fear of harm."
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Jorge Montero
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The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and discipline.

God is love, but we must fear him? Ignorance is strength!

After writing that, claiming that fools despise wisdom seems rather ironic.
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True Blue Jon
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From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fear

Main Entry: fear
Pronunciation: \ˈfir\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English feren, from Old English fǣran, from fǣr
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
1 archaic : frighten
2 archaic : to feel fear in (oneself)
3 : to have a reverential awe of
4 : to be afraid of : expect with alarm

We're using definition #3 here.
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Dwayne Hendrickson
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How do you interpet Wisdom mentioned in v20. Is it another name for God or is it just the fruits of wisdom?
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okiedokie wrote:
How do you interpet Wisdom mentioned in v20. Is it another name for God or is it just the fruits of wisdom?


I think they are purposely interwined in Proverbs so that one does not exist without the other.
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Lynette
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hibikir wrote:
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and discipline.

God is love, but we must fear him? Ignorance is strength!

After writing that, claiming that fools despise wisdom seems rather ironic.


Where in this text does it say "Ignorance is strength"?

Or any other text.

God does not wish us to be ignorant, He wants us to be wise.

As for fear... yes FEAR of you is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom for your children. Doesn't mean you don't love them. That you are not the primary source of all that is good and loving in their lives.

But YOU must set limits. Limits they must learn and early on obey so that they do not damage themselves by running a muck following every instinct and inclination willy nilly. So they do not put themselves under the influence and guidance of fools or evil people who do not love them and put them first.

Why would God's love be any different?

I was a Nanny for years to pay my way though college in my twenties.

You never met a more horrid group of little monsters than the kids of parents who were unwilling to set and enforce with serious discipline limits on their children. I had charge of one 4 year old who thought it was ok to slap his mother when he didn't get his way. And she would just hug him and tell him that he shouldn't hurt mommy.

These kids from multiple families were so awful they had been kicked out of several pre-schools because they could not be disciplined.

One mother forbid the use of the word NO in her household. We were supposed to teach her son manners by offering suggestions of better ways. Doesn't work on a 2 year old.

With all of these kids in 2 weeks or less I had made significant improvements in their behavior because I DIDN'T follow these ridiculous restrictions. They learned to both love and respect me.. but it started out with more than a bit of screaming, crying and fear on their parts. Not that I would hit them because I don't hit other peoples children. But I would force-ably HOLD them into that corner for a time out if I had to. And punish them in a variety of different ways that fit the situations.

And you know what... the kids were HAPPIER because when they learned limits and could be trusted to OBEY them I took them to do wonderful new things, like out to see my horse and learn to ride, and trips to the bird of prey center to see real falcons and other neat things, places that would be dangerous to take kids who would not obey me. I also could take them to the library, and to movies and all kinds of other places their mothers could no longer take them because they had been so ill behaved. The mothers were amazed that I could do these thing with their kids.

The mothers had to learn to be fear inducing to be good mothers.

When I was growing up there was nobody I loved and trusted more than my grandparents. But I also feared them more than other people because in the safe world they created for me I didn't know that anybody could hurt me more than spanking me. I didn't know the dangers I could put myself into because they didn't let me get into seriously dangerous situations.

It took real life away from guardians to teach me how much more there was to fear in the world.

God knows how much more there is to fear than His discipline as well.

The corruption of mind and soul is much more to be feared than any other thing. Even more then death.

Death can only destroy your body. Evil can corrupt and destroy that within you that is eternal.

What profit it a man to gain the whole world but in the process to lose his own soul?
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Meerkat wrote:
Where in this text does it say "Ignorance is strength"?

Or any other text.


It's from George Orwell's 1984.
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quozl wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
Where in this text does it say "Ignorance is strength"?

Or any other text.


It's from George Orwell's 1984.



Ahhh but there is no Double Think in the Bible.


Things we may not fully understand... yes.

Double Think... No.

God is not Big Brother. Though He has the power to be so. He chooses a different way. One that lets us do what He wishes we would not do and could stop us from doing. He lets us chose when He doesn't have to.

A very different kind of system from the 1984 model. Which sought to control absolutely, no matter what individuals chose/wanted.
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quozl wrote:
okiedokie wrote:
How do you interpet Wisdom mentioned in v20. Is it another name for God or is it just the fruits of wisdom?


I think they are purposely interwined in Proverbs so that one does not exist without the other.


I disagree. Wisdom is anthropomorphic here (and elsewhere), but she is not an actual being.
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Interesting that wisdom is female here too. Anyone got background?
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Basically a long and flowery way of saying - don't be an idiot, don't do idiotically obviously bad things.

I wonder if Shakespeare's fatherly advice speech in Hamlet was inspired by Proverbs? Perhaps he had to sit through one too many readings...

I think the last paragraph makes some good points even today (they all make good points - some wisdom is timeless). You can't wait until calamity strikes. You can't sit on your ass - or worse, backslide. You must always move forward in the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge.
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Kevin C wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
I was a Nanny for years to pay my way though college in my twenties.

Thanks Lynette, I found that helpful.

I wonder if the problem in relation to child rearing is that the argument has become polemical? Either you are a child-beater, or you are not allowed to discipline children at all, and if you deviate from either extreme then
both sides will stigmatise you as belonging to the other. Which makes any sort of middle road a lonely one.

(I have a 5 month old daughter.)


You are welcome.


If you need advice let me know. I got to be so in demand I was able to start a small business for awhile and the Jewish Community Center in Orlando ask me to teach a babysitting course for their teenage girls.

I found that training children and a spirited young Arabian stallion (which I had gotten in my last year of high school) concurrently taught me a lot about discipline out of love.

Calm but firm is the ticket. Never let them see you get really riled by anything they do. Angry is ok, but not furious or "out of control" .

Never EVER bluff. Kids will play Russian Roulette with 5 chambers loaded. If you say X will happen if they do Y you better be prepared to make X happen. Especially things like standing in corner, grounding, denial of TV, games, etc. So start out with short times. It is easier to insist they serve out the entire punishment.

And the best book I ever read on child rearing taught, punish disobedience, spank for rebellion. And it seemed to me parents who followed this had the healthiest, happiest and most well behaved kids.

Example of which is which. Rule "no cookies before dinner". Walk into kitchen and see kid getting cookie out of jar. Disobedience. So no cookies for a couple of days, or sent to room or time out in a corner or some other punishment that is age appropriate, correlative and a direct consequence.

Rebellion: Kid is in kitchen with you can asks if they can have a cookie before dinner. You say no. Kid reaches out and takes a cookie anyway and stuffs it in mouth. Time for a spanking. They are challenging your authority directly. It is a test to see if you are going to enforce the limits.

But again this should be done coolly and without "passion" on your part. Open hand is sufficient and helps you know how hard you are spanking. It doesn't even have to hurt a lot.. it is the idea of it combined with the forced submission that usually makes it effective.

Good luck raising your daughter. I always loved the ages of ~ 8 months to 4 years old best personally.



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Meerkat wrote:
Kevin C wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
I was a Nanny for years to pay my way though college in my twenties.

Thanks Lynette, I found that helpful.

I wonder if the problem in relation to child rearing is that the argument has become polemical? Either you are a child-beater, or you are not allowed to discipline children at all, and if you deviate from either extreme then
both sides will stigmatise you as belonging to the other. Which makes any sort of middle road a lonely one.

(I have a 5 month old daughter.)


You are welcome.


If you need advice let me know. I got to be so in demand I was able to start a small business for awhile and the Jewish Community Center in Orlando ask me to teach a babysitting course for their teenage girls.

I found that training children and a spirited young Arabian stallion (which I had gotten in my last year of high school) concurrently taught me a lot about discipline out of love.

Calm but firm is the ticket. Never let them see you get really riled by anything they do. Angry is ok, but not furious or "out of control" .

Never EVER bluff. Kids will play Russian Roulette with 5 chambers loaded. If you say X will happen if they do Y you better be prepared to make X happen. Especially things like standing in corner, grounding, denial of TV, games, etc. So start out with short times. It is easier to insist they serve out the entire punishment.

And the best book I ever read on child rearing taught, punish disobedience, spank for rebellion. And it seemed to me parents who followed this had the healthiest, happiest and most well behaved kids.

Example of which is which. Rule "no cookies before dinner". Walk into kitchen and see kid getting cookie out of jar. Disobedience. So no cookies for a couple of days, or sent to room or time out in a corner or some other punishment that is age appropriate, correlative and a direct consequence.

Rebellion: Kid is in kitchen with you can asks if they can have a cookie before dinner. You say no. Kid reaches out and takes a cookie anyway and stuffs it in mouth. Time for a spanking. They are challenging your authority directly. It is a test to see if you are going to enforce the limits.

But again this should be done coolly and without "passion" on your part. Open hand is sufficient and helps you know how hard you are spanking. It doesn't even have to hurt a lot.. it is the idea of it combined with the forced submission that usually makes it effective.

Good luck raising your daughter. I always loved the ages of ~ 8 months to 4 years old best personally.





I would take it a step further and say spank for open rebellion iff (sic) time out or other non-corporal tactics don't work. No need to hit a nail with a sledgehammer when a hammer will do.
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Kevin C wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
I was a Nanny for years to pay my way though college in my twenties.

Thanks Lynette, I found that helpful.

I wonder if the problem in relation to child rearing is that the argument has become polemical? Either you are a child-beater, or you are not allowed to discipline children at all, and if you deviate from either extreme then
both sides will stigmatise you as belonging to the other. Which makes any sort of middle road a lonely one.

(I have a 5 month old daughter.)


I think those parents (on both ends of the spectrum) don't perceive the difference between discipline and cruelty. In the one camp, anything that makes their child cry is causing them harm and therefore abusive on some level. In the other, they don't notice when they cross the line from one to the other.
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