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Subject: Relief force AND sieging force both destroyed - What happens to leaders? rss

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Karl Schmit
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Menomonee Falls
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The situation was this. Papacy has Renegade leader and 2 units putting a Hapsburgs key with 1 unit under siege. Hapsburgs spend ops to bring in one leaders and 2 units as a relief force, but choose to let the 1 unit remain inside the key. Both sides score 2 hits.

The Field Battle rules would say that both leaders are captured because both forces are eliminated. BUT, in the Relief Forces section it explicitly states that there are only 3 possible outcomes, and the 2nd of which(top of page 22) would appear to be this case so that the Hapsburgs leader could retreat inside the key while the Renegade leader was forced to retreat since the siege could no longer be maintained. Which actually happens?

It was the known last turn of the game(Protestants and Ottomans both way over 25, Papacy was just going for a military victory before that) so it ended up being immaterial to the outcome but we all agreed it was a good question for Ed.


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Greg Forster
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Pleasant Prairie
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"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning" - Dr. Reiner Knizia
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I'm not Ed, but I'll take a stab at it.

I would say that in the field battle resolution at the top of page 20, it says you have to resolve casualties before you resolve retreats, and the rule that your leader is captured if all your units are eliminated is explicitly a part of the resolve casualties step; thus the Hapsburg leader is captured before he has a chance to retreat into the walls.

This is consistent with the rule at the top of p.22 governing relief force field battles because when it says that if the hits are equal "the active player may choose to retreat any units or army leaders that participated in the battle into the fortifications," this is after casualties have been fully resolved, i.e. the rule applies assuming the active player has any units or leaders left to retreat. The rule on page 22 does not supercede the procedure for resolving field battles, it only clarifies what your retreat options are in the special case where the field battle takes place in a besieged space.

If we read the rule on page 22 as superceding the order of the steps on page 20, then the Hapsburg could not only keep his leader, but also his land units!

Ed?
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Karl Schmit
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Hmm, after reading your post and a careful review of the rules, AND assuming I remember the situation correctly I think this is what should have happened:

Papacy had Renegade Leader and 2 units putting Barcelona under siege. There was 1 Hapsburg unit in Barcelona. Hapsburgs brings in one of their minor leaders and 2 units as a relief force but elects to leave the 1 unit inside Barcelona. A field battle occurs. Hapsburgs roll 3 dice (2 units + leader bonus), Papacy roll 4(2 units, Leader, defender). Both score 2 hits. Papacy rolled more dice so they retain 1 unit. Hapsburgs leader is captured by Papacy. Papacy no longer has enough units to maintain a siege and must retreat, but there are no valid retreat spaces so they are eliminated.

So that's how we ended up, even if getting there was a little confusing.
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Alex
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I necrobump this to hear more opinions.

Also: I assume you can take your casualties in any distribution you choose. If the OP had chosen to use the Barcelona unit inside too and given the same number of hits, he could have taken out 1 unit from BCN and 1 from the relief force. That leaves you with one leader and 1 unit that can get inside.

I'm on a similar case. Leader + 3 relief / +2 inside. All join. They suffer 3 hits and lose. If i'm forced to take casualties on the relief force, the leader is captured. If I can distribute them, I can leave 1 inside , 1 relief + leader to retreat. Or even 0 inside and retreat with 2 and pray they lose LOC somehow.

 
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