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Subject: Supply rules rss

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James McHaffey
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I played my first game this past weekend and had a rules question but am wondering if we were playing it incorrectly. I was the Germans and on two seperate instances my opponent cut an army (an infantry and a panzer army) out of supply. The first time he tried to keep my infantry army out of supply but I was able to blast my way out of trouble. The next turn he eliminated the army by attacking it from multiple hexes by getting a retreat result with no possible retreat path. I rebuilt the army almost immediately. The next turn he literally formed a concentric circle of 6 units around my panzer army and eliminated it. Again I rebuilt it the next turn. In both instances my army was out of supply at the moment it was eliminated so he was furious that I was able to rebuild them. I kind of saw his point but told him that's not the way the rules read and so you must play accordingly. We played on and I won and he proceeded to blame the loss on his abandoning board position to kill my two units which he says in retrospect did him absolutely no good. He swore to not play again unless we instituted a house rule. Were we playing incorrectly? Am I gaming the system by knowingly going out of supply based on the assumption it can be rebuilt unless it is elminated ONLY for being out of supply and not the result of combat WHILE out of supply?
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Joel Langenfeld
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If the unit is eliminated while carrying an OOS marker, it becomes "surrendered", which is worth a VP and also makes it very expensive to rebuild. If it is eliminated before gaining the OOS marker, it is "only" eliminated.

Units don't become OOS until a supply phase, so the simple act of encirclement isn't enough for the unit to become surrendered.

Carl will probably comment on the official design philosophy, but IMO the resouces expended to rebuild a surrendered unit would be comparable to that of reforming a new unit and simply transfering the unit designation. The counter set is limited (esp by VPG), so it doesn't cause me any heartburn.

Edit: typo
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Carl Paradis
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Hello Heinz,

are you playing with the stand-alone game, or using the "No Surrender!" extension, too?

Don't forget you check for supply at the start of a player-turn, and eliminate unsupplied units at the end of the same turn. Speaking about your panzer unit, if it was "out of Supply" when it was eliminated it goes in the "Surrendered" pile. Thus costing the owner a precious Victory Point, and two cards to rebuild on its reduced side instead of one. IMHO that is penalty enough!

BTW, you said that your Panzer was "unsupplied" when it was eliminated. I'm not sure this was "Game Rules" correct: was it in supply at the start of the turn? If yes, then there was no "unsupplied" marker on it, right? So even if completely surrounded by Soviet troops at the moment of destruction, it was not considered "Out of Supply" thus did not go in the "Surrendered" holding box.

You opponent "point" is not valid IMHO. You don't check for supply at the instant the combat takes place, ONLY at the start of the turn (and in the marker removal phase, to eliminate "Out of supply" units). Why? I mean, this is an "You move - I move" sequential game. In "real life" both Player-Turns occur simultaneously; this is why you don't check supply at the end of each phase: it would be ludicrous, as the Panzers in this case do not have the opportunity to "react" to the Soviet surrounding move. To get the "unsupplied" counters you have to put a unit OOS for a longer time than this. Most wargames work like this, too.

And it's also why unsupplied units do not get any penalty in the attack, only in the defense --> everything is simultaneous, so if I "surround" an ennemy unit during my turn, it has the chance of "breaking out" without penalty: perhaps in "real life" the troops pulled out just in time, so were never "Unsupplied". If the breakout does not suceeed, and they are eliminated, then they do die at the end of the turn. I find this design compromise quite fair.

In this game killing units "Out of Supply" is a very strong tactic. The Germans needs to do this to have a beter chance of winning (you get precious victory points and the destroyed units cost double to replace).

And again, do not forget that a unit with an "Out of Supply" counter is ELIMINATED automatically in phase #6 (the Marker/Unit Removal Phase).
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Edward Hung
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heinz_guderian wrote:
I kind of saw his point but told him that's not the way the rules read and so you must play accordingly. We played on and I won and he proceeded to blame the loss on his abandoning board position to kill my two units which he says in retrospect did him absolutely no good. He swore to not play again unless we instituted a house rule.


Different games may have different mechanics, so the strategies may differ too. It is better for your friend to try to refine his strategy in playing this game before giving up the game unless with his house rule, right?
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