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Subject: Black market with quarry or church rss

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I searched a bit but didn't find anything on this topic.

Say I have a manned black market and a manned quarry. It is the builder phase and I want to sacrifice the guy on my quarry in order to build. Do I get the quarry discount and the black market discount?

Similar situation, but now I have a guy on my black market and a guy on a church. It is builder phase and I sacrifice the guy on my church to build a building. Do I get the church bonus points?

Since it's my understanding that one can indeed sacrifice the guy on the black market, it seems as though in the first situation the quarry discount should resolve before the guy gets sacrificed and thus one gets both discounts.

However, in the second situation, you sacrifice the guy in order to buy the building and only then does the church bonus kick in, but you don't have a guy on the church and so you don't get a bonus.

Is there an exact ruling on these situations? Thanks.
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James Adrian
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Good questions, sir. I feel like you're spot on: you get the quarry discount but not the church bonus, and the black market fellow can be unrighteously sold...
However, that is simply the result of my musings and never official rulings.
I'd be interested to hear the answer!
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Andy Leber
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I also have nothing official to base it on, but our group wouldn't allow the quarry bonus. We'd say the manned quarry needs to be manned right up until the moment of purchase.

I don't see anything that points to the quarry resolving first. Anything is possible though.
 
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rocket363 wrote:
I searched a bit but didn't find anything on this topic.

Say I have a manned black market and a manned quarry. It is the builder phase and I want to sacrifice the guy on my quarry in order to build. Do I get the quarry discount and the black market discount?

Yes, so long as you do not overstep the maximum discounts indicated on the top of the building chart.

rocket363 wrote:
Similar situation, but now I have a guy on my black market and a guy on a church. It is builder phase and I sacrifice the guy on my church to build a building. Do I get the church bonus points?
Yes, why wouldn't you? The church had a colonist in it, did it not?
rocket363 wrote:

Since it's my understanding that one can indeed sacrifice the guy on the black market,...

the rules state you cannot sacrifice the colonist on the black market to activate the black market function, if that is what you mean.
rocket363 wrote:

it seems as though in the first situation the quarry discount should resolve before the guy gets sacrificed and thus one gets both discounts.
No, it's not M:tG - there are no 'timing rules'. Think "game states"...when you decide to do something, you must meet the conditions. Since you have a manned quarry and a manned Black Market, nothing stops you from sacking the guy on the quarry - you've already fufilled the game state condition for the quarry - it being manned. Again, I would say the constraint would be the maximum allowed discount at the top of the building card.
rocket363 wrote:

However, in the second situation, you sacrifice the guy in order to buy the building and only then does the church bonus kick in, but you don't have a guy on the church and so you don't get a bonus.
No, same reasons as above. Game States.

Not official, and YMMV, but that is how I would play it.
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Chris Gibbs
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I always assumed that any black market sacrifices come into effect before the building takes place - this is how it is implemented in Tropic Euro and the phial.com online versions.

However, the official rules at http://www.riograndegames.com/uploads/Game/Game_159_gameRule... don't say anything about this. Logically, the church bonus could be expected to be applied after the building has been purchased, but for the quarry it's perhaps not quite as clear cut, although the simplest solution is to just be consistent and not allow either bonus.
 
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TropicEuro wrote:
I always assumed that any black market sacrifices come into effect before the building takes place - this is how it is implemented in Tropic Euro and the phial.com online versions.

However, the official rules at http://www.riograndegames.com/uploads/Game/Game_159_gameRule... don't say anything about this. Logically, the church bonus could be expected to be applied after the building has been purchased, but for the quarry it's perhaps not quite as clear cut, although the simplest solution is to just be consistent and not allow either bonus.


Neither Tropic Euro or phial.com is an official PR app. It's completely possible they are doing it wrong. I think the answer might be to get on BSW and try it - do they have the expansion buildings? Dunno - I don't play PR there.

I look at it this way: I've decided to build, so I look at the game states for discounts. Manned quarry, Manned Black Market. This means I can activate both functions. My manned quarry gives me -1; My Black Market sac of the guy on the quarry (who has dutifully quarried for me because he did man the quarry until his number came up in the hanging lottery) gives me another -1 cost.

Might be worth an email to RGG...or maybe Jay is around to answer the question?


 
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Chris Gibbs
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markgravitygood wrote:
Neither Tropic Euro or phial.com is an official PR app. It's completely possible they are doing it wrong. I think the answer might be to get on BSW and try it - do they have the expansion buildings? Dunno - I don't play PR there.


True - but BSW isn't official either? AFAIK the only "official" version of PR is the Eagle Games PC version, but something in the 3D code for that version causes my machine to crash so I'm unable to test it.
 
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Uh, try it in 2D?
 
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Chris Gibbs
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Sorry I meant it was an issue with DirectDraw or similar (not the 3d mode in the game). However, I just managed to get it to work by changing some GFX card settings, anyone know how to actually use the black market in the Eagle Games version?
 
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Chris Gibbs
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Right, after googling it I finally figured out how to use it (!), and it appears that the quarry *and* church bonus are applied before any black market sacrifices take effect. As the official rules don't say anything about it, maybe I need to create a poll to find out what people would prefer?
 
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Chris Gibbs
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It's down to where the game state is computed:

1) In the Eagle Games version, the interpretation of the black market is that the building can be purchased first (and church bonus applied) for an amount up to a value assuming all black market sacrifices are made, and then after the building is bought, 1-3 individual items must be sacrificed in order to complete the sale.

2) In TE / phial.com, a coin/good/VP can be sacrificed incrementally beforehand to increase the maximum amount of money available to spend on a new building.

A case could probably be made logically for both interpretations and so which is best may just be down to personal preference. The TE / phial.com method perhaps is more forgiving in that it gives the user more chance to change his mind, whereas with the Eagle version once the building is bought then a fixed number of sacrifices must be made.

I'm also slightly resistant to making changes to the black market code in TE because the phial.com code (on which TE is based) implements the black market via some monstrous hackery and I would prefer not to introduce bugs into other areas of the game...
 
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TropicEuro wrote:
Right, after googling it I finally figured out how to use it (!), and it appears that the quarry *and* church bonus are applied before any black market sacrifices take effect. As the official rules don't say anything about it, maybe I need to create a poll to find out what people would prefer?


Uh, I sort of disagree about 'preference'. I think the RAW apply correctly. When you make the decision to purchase a building, you can take the quarry bonus and the church bonus regardless if you subsequently Black Market sac the colonist on either of them. The decision to build has been made already.

I think the Eagle Games PC implementation is as correct as you'll get, and is an official product no less, correct?
 
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Chris Gibbs
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markgravitygood wrote:
I think the Eagle Games PC implementation is as correct as you'll get, and is an official product no less, correct?


Well yeah it's an official product but it still doesn't necessarily mean that the black market was required to be implemented in a certain way, especially as the rules don't make it clear.

I still think it's a matter of personal taste as I myself prefer the TE / phial.com way of doing it (regardless of my unwillingness to modify TE), primarily because in games I've had in the past on TE / phial.com, I've often decided to start using the black market and then changed my mind later once I realised I didn't want to make as many sacrifices (and have seen many others do this as well).

Also, I've rarely been in the situation where I've actually wanted to sacrifice a man on a quarry or (especially) the church - there are usually more suitable plantations/buildings from which to make the sacrifice. Using the Eagle method, it's also quite hard to indicate in a clear and concise way what sacrifices need to be made - the Eagle interface doesn't achieve this in my opinion, whereas the TE interface was designed with simplicity in mind.

 
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Great replies, thanks.

I too am rarely in a situation where I'd like to sacrifice my quarry or church guy but I can see it arising: say you know it's to be the last builder phase, being able to sacrifice one of those guys and still keep their powers for that turn could be greatly preferable to sacrificing someone else that might be of use during a subsequent crafting/shipping/etc phase.

Also, it'd be nice to know what the designers of the game intended.

Do the rules really state one can't sacrifice the guy on the black market itself? I was not aware of that. If true, it seems as though you would not be able to sacrifice either quarry guy or church guy and still maintain their bonus.

As for "resolving", my initial interpretation views taking the quarry bonus as a doubloon and the guy on the quarry as a doubloon but just like pulling money out of my left and right pocket, I take the quarry bonus first (take the dollar out of my left pocket first) then take the black market bonus second (take the dollar out of my right pocket second) and then make the purchase.

Whereas the church bonus depends on what is built, so after you buy a building, after the money (the guy on the church) is gone, you get the bonus, but alas the church is not manned.

Sounds like our group should just make a "house rules" decision regarding these.
 
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Dan The Man
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I read it just the opposite. It matters not WHEN you DECIDE to build (I can do that before Builder is even chosen), but what happens at the moment you DO build: you exchange Doubloons/discounts for buildings.

So, what is important is: at the moment I build, what is my manned state, INCLUDING any and all discounts I am entitled to take? If I sacrifice my colonist on the quarry, the quarry is NOT MANNED at the time I build, therefore I do not receive any bonus. If my Black Market were to be unmanned at the moment I built, I could not claim its function, therefore, since its function is only available if it is manned, the colonist on the Black Market cannot be used for any discount.

Opinions, of course. YMMV. All rights reserved. Subject to official verification. Etc.
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Chris Gibbs
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DnaDan56 wrote:
So, what is important is: at the moment I build, what is my manned state, INCLUDING any and all discounts I am entitled to take? If I sacrifice my colonist on the quarry, the quarry is NOT MANNED at the time I build, therefore I do not receive any bonus. If my Black Market were to be unmanned at the moment I built, I could not claim its function, therefore, since its function is only available if it is manned, the colonist on the Black Market cannot be used for any discount.


Precisely - if you are explicitly not allowed to sacrifice the man on the black market in order to get its discount (at any point before or after building), then the same rule should apply to quarry/church.

I've had another attempt at the Eagle Games version, and am now convinced that the TE / phial.com is the most intuitive and elegant way of implementing the black market. (I've played a lot of PR and I had to google to figure out how to use it on the Eagle version which says a lot in itself)
 
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Eric Nielsen
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rocket363 wrote:
I searched a bit but didn't find anything on this topic.


Here you go:
Re: Black Market question

Which colonists are legal to sell?

Black Market: Never. Under no circumstances can you sell this worker.
Quarry: Only if the quarry is not being used for the purchase
Library: Only if the library is not being used for the purchase
Church: Always, but you will not earn the bonus VP
University: Always, but the newly purchased building will not come with a colonist
University Bonus Colonist: Never. You cannot pay for a building with the colonist you would have immediately received due the function of the University.


You do have the option of not using a particular quarry and trading in the colonist from it. This is useful if you are buying a cheap building and can't use all your quarries or if you want to just throw a colonist back in the pool to change the endgame timing.

Examples:

5 gold, 1 active quarry, active black market.
-You can use the quarry, but this bars you from selling the quarry worker. Purchasing power = 6db
-You can choose to not use the quarry, and sell the quarry worker instead. Purchasing power = 6db; loss of one colonist
-You can use the quarry and sell a colonist from elsewhere. Purchasing power = 7db

0 gold, 3 active quarries, active black market
-You can sell the colonist from one quarry and use the other two quarries to buy a Large Indigo Plant.
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Eric Nielsen
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markgravitygood wrote:
Uh, I sort of disagree about 'preference'. I think the RAW apply correctly. When you make the decision to purchase a building, you can take the quarry bonus and the church bonus regardless if you subsequently Black Market sac the colonist on either of them. The decision to build has been made already.


The "I've already made the decision to build" logic is awful.

By that logic, if I have a manned University and "make the decision" to take Builder and buy a Library, then I should be able use the Library bonus to lower the cost of the Library by 1 doubloon.
 
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Is that one man's (unofficial) opinion or is that from Alea? Provide a link to an english translation please if possible...
 
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Chris Gibbs
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Sorted, no need for me to modify TE then
 
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Eric Nielsen
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markgravitygood wrote:
Is that one man's (unofficial) opinion or is that from Alea? Provide a link to an english translation please if possible...


It's a straightforward reading of the official rules: [geekurl=http://www.riograndegames.com/uploads/Game/Game_4_gameRules.pdf][/geekurl]

During builder phase, the player pays for the building, takes the building from the supply, and places it in one single atomic action.

What you are trying to do is ignore/misinterpret the word "immediately" that describes the build action. In this context, it does not mean "as soon as possible", it means "occuring in an instant". The pay/take/place process is not interrupable.

You can't interject the function of the Church at some arbitrary point in the middle of the build process (before you've paid for the building, but after you've decided to buy it) simply because that rules lawyering could get you the most plusses.

If you've built the building, you have already paid for it. If you've used the colonist from your Church to pay for the building, you do not have an occupied Church. If you do not have an occupied Church you do not receive your bonus.
 
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paeanblack wrote:
markgravitygood wrote:
Uh, I sort of disagree about 'preference'. I think the RAW apply correctly. When you make the decision to purchase a building, you can take the quarry bonus and the church bonus regardless if you subsequently Black Market sac the colonist on either of them. The decision to build has been made already.


The "I've already made the decision to build" logic is awful.

By that logic, if I have a manned University and "make the decision" to take Builder and buy a Library, then I should be able use the Library bonus to lower the cost of the Library by 1 doubloon.


Thanks, but it's really unecessary to be a jerk about it. If it was PLAINLY OBVIOUS there would not be SEVERAL THREADS regarding the mechanic.

I stand corrected. Feel better?
 
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paeanblack wrote:
Black Market: Never. Under no circumstances can you sell this worker.
Quarry: Only if the quarry is not being used for the purchase
Library: Only if the library is not being used for the purchase
Church: Always, but you will not earn the bonus VP
University: Always, but the newly purchased building will not come with a colonist
University Bonus Colonist: Never. You cannot pay for a building with the colonist you would have immediately received due the function of the University.


Thanks for finding the quote. +1 thumb.

Also, following these rulings, it's safe to assume that the Black Market applies to the Treasure Chest buildings in this way:

Construction Office: Colonist/nobleman may be sacrificed if the C.O. is not being used for the purchase.
 
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