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Subject: Agriculture + Pottery = Win? rss

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William Baldwin
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I could be wrong....

But 6 leaf symbols means drawing like mad and winning quickly or did I miss something? Others cannot use the ability to draw because there is no way to equal the leaf symbols in most every case and the first part of Pottery = MAY so it doesn't matter.

I re-read the rules but find nothing about hand size limitations.

Use the Agriculture card to collect victory.

Did I miss something?!?!?!
 
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Tim Seitz
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Pottery definitely becomes stronger as the game goes on, since you can return a card, then draw and score, and draw again. Once the small piles disappear, this starts to add up. However, there are other cards that can score higher as tech levels rise.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Willi B wrote:
and the first part of Pottery = MAY so it doesn't matter.


If you opt out of the first part of Pottery, it lets you... draw a 1, which you could have done anyway.

Are you misinterpreting the card as letting you draw a 1 for every leaf you have?
 
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William Baldwin
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It has been a while.... maybe a 3rd card that allowed a person to draw 1 card for every 2 leaf symbols a person had.... I don't recall the name.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Fermenting. Then you wouldn't have Agriculture. I'm not sure what the combo is at that point anyway. Fermenting is pretty good though!
 
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Willi B wrote:
It has been a while.... maybe a 3rd card that allowed a person to draw 1 card for every 2 leaf symbols a person had.... I don't recall the name.


It's Fermenting that allows you to draw a 2 for every 2 leafs on your board - but it's also a 2nd level tech, not a first level one.

In addition, both Agriculture and Pottery only allow you to score 1 card at a time. Clothing is probably the best L1 scoring tech (but gets much weaker the more players you have). Maybe Metalworking.
 
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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Pottery and Agriculture are techs that aren't tempered over time, pottery being more awesome (in my opinion). I saw one player practically ever turn do double pottery and kinda cruised in for the win. No one drew any direct demand cards, and passive-aggression was not possible since the only thing he had was leaves and he had a clear majority.

I don't think it's typical. Pirate code would have tore him up, and I can think of a couple others too. Just no one drew them.
 
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William Baldwin
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Fermenting + 6 leaves maybe... ?

All I know is I am kinda sour on the game because I had 6 leaves and was drawing 3 cards non-stop so that I kinda ran away with the game... meanwhile, I'm scouring the rules to see if I was doing something wrong and getting nothing concrete to stop me from playing optimal strategy (outside of my gamer kindness).

I thought that if this was possible, there wasn't enough playtesting. Such anomalies SO EARLY in the game shouldn't exist. I basically could draw a counter to any strategy my opponents developed and more likely than not have more symbols of anything if I tried.

I'll try to give it another go, but only with someone that is seasoned at the game. But if this game experience I had is any indication, I won't be getting a copy anytime soon.
 
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William Baldwin
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BTW, Drawing a 2 just means "until there are no more 2's then draw 3's and so on" according to rules, right? I mean I kept drawing into the 6's and 7's.

The rules were OK, but it was such a huge point it should have been better worded or given an illustration.
 
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James Ludlow
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Willi B wrote:
BTW, Drawing a 2 just means "until there are no more 2's then draw 3's and so on" according to rules, right? I mean I kept drawing into the 6's and 7's.

The rules were OK, but it was such a huge point it should have been better worded or given an illustration.


The Rules wrote:
Any time you try and draw a card from an empty supply pile, draw from the next available higher pile.


That seems pretty clear.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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I wrote a session report about a game with an insane Fermenting engine here: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/554572/the-tale-of-the-monum...

Even though I won, my opponent was just one turn away from claiming the last two achievements he needed. And he was quite unlucky in not getting any of the cards that could have wrecked me:

(1) City States
(3) Compass
(3) Engineering
(3) Alchemy
(4) Gunpowder
(5) Physics

plus just about any card which draws and melds, and can be easily engineered to cover up a specific color card by using a return effect first, such as Sailing or Mysticism or Optics.
 
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William Baldwin
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Played it again tonight with friends. It was an entirely different experience.

However, one thing remains clear. IT IS FAR TOO RANDOM. The luck of the draw is too important to the outcome of the game.

While there is ebb and flow, that really has little to do with great strategy or tactics. Some cards are just better than others and that is a shame because I wanted to like the game.
 
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Doug Green
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There is definitely a substantial element of card-drawing-luck but after playing 5 or 6 more games I've found that it's not as much of a factor as I originally thought. I enjoy the game much more now than after only a couple plays. Also, most of my games have been 2 player or the 4 player team variant. If you are playing with 3 or 4 straight up, there is quite a bit more randomness.
 
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William Baldwin
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Sounds like they should have just made it a 2 player game. By changing my expectations with the 2-4 player listing, they may have lost a sale.

Still think that not enough playtesting went into the card powers as 2 of us here have realized that Fermenting can cause run away win.

Great stuff in the game concepts, but I think I'll have to pass. Too little money to be throwing it out for woulda', coulda', shoulda', or that dreaded, "I'll fix it in post."
 
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Troy Adlington
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Here we go again. Too random, only works as 2 player, etc etc

Admit it to yourselves, you are control freaks who only wish to play Caylus.

arrrh

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William Baldwin
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If I wanted to waste time on randomness we could flip coins.

If I didn't want to have control I could play Candyland.

There is no theme... only thinking makes it so.

Blood Bowl rocks.
 
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Jamie Pollock
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Don't give up on it. I've played 2-player and 3-player and loved both equally. Having erstwhile knowledge of the cards really helps, and it can often feel a little random in the first few games as you learn what cards do what.

There are many ways to play Innovation, one of key ones being whether you play with a large hand or play with no hand at all. The former allows for more planning as obviously you're not relying on luck of the draw as much, but it can leave you susceptible in other ways. Those playing with little or no hand cards will find themselves protected from many attack cards but the consequence of this is that they'll find themselves more exposed to luck of the draw.
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Russell Martin
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Maybe Chris could comment on the amount of playtesting that went on. I know about the buy/playtest-and-comment/get-a-new-version trials that they did, so would think that quite a lot of playtesting went into the game before the final release.

(Of course, likely Chris has already commented on the playtesting in another thread, or several threads...)
 
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Troy Adlington
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Willi B wrote:
If I wanted to waste time on randomness we could flip coins.

If I didn't want to have control I could play Candyland.

There is no theme... only thinking makes it so.

Blood Bowl rocks.


Are you seriously saying this game is as interesting as flipping a coin or playing Candyland.

I think not.

I have played at least a dozen games of this now and it fully stresses me out.

There are many decisions to be made and I know I am only scratching the surface of the gameplay.

In a 4 player things can change so much by the time it's your turn, but you always have to be watching to see how the 'world' changes

Anyways, I have had this same argument over and over in miniatures, war-games and board-games.

Some blame randomness for their losses, and others seem to win over and over again in spite of the supposed chaos. I wonder why that is
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David Jackman
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Definately try to get some more plays under your belt before you make a judgement. The games true learning curve is in being aware of more than 100 possible cards. The rules are just a way for you to start reading the 'real' rules - the cards.

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William Baldwin
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Life is too short and my group plays too much variety to master 100 cards.

I've got too many of my own designs that need my attention to worry about woulda', coulda', shoulda'.... 2 plays is enough of a chance to win my money.

Innovation, while having a nice splay mechanic, is too random for my tastes. Add in the rulebook and the fact that it should probably stick to being 2 player.... eh, to each their own. Not for me.



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Randall Bart
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Willi B wrote:
Life is too short and my group plays too much variety to master 100 cards.

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There are way too many cards to take this game seriously. Glory to Rome has 41 unique cards for us to learn. I think 41 is a lot, but you learn that there are a half dozen which you have to look for. Innovation has too many different cards, and none of them look distinctive across the table.
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Jamie Pollock
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Barticus88 wrote:
Willi B wrote:
Life is too short and my group plays too much variety to master 100 cards.

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There are way too many cards to take this game seriously.


That's just preposterous. I've only played it maybe 10 times since purchase and I already have a pretty good idea of what a lot of the cards do. Anyway, I'd hope to be playing it hundreds of times before acquiring full knowledge and there are no more surprises. Exploring the cards and their potential interactions is definitely part of the fun for me.

Needless to say, if you didn't know Innovation was a highly tactical game before purchase, then more fool you. Tactical games often require you to make the best of what you've got when it's your turn. Look at T&E for a good example of this - much of what happens between your turns is outwith your control. That's the beauty of the game, and that's what makes it highly interactive. Those complaining about randomness and a feeling of not being in control should maybe look elsewhere at games that exhibit elements of multiplayer solitaire, like RftG!
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Randall Bart
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Jambo wrote:
I've only played it maybe 10 times since purchase and I already have a pretty good idea of what a lot of the cards do.

After 10 games I expect to know all the rules.

Jambo wrote:
Anyway, I'd hope to be playing it hundreds of times before acquiring full knowledge and there are no more surprises.

I want to have full knowledge of the rule and no more surprises in the rules after just a couple hours. Surprises should come from tactical interaction.

Jambo wrote:
Needless to say, if you didn't know Innovation was a highly tactical game before purchase, then more fool you.

Didn't buy. Won't buy. It has nothing to do with tactics. Too many distinct cards to take it seriously.
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William Baldwin
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My problem isn't with the number of unique cards... it's that perhaps some games are going to be won because the cards can make someone dominate the game and, occasionally, there won't be anything that can realistically be done.

Like in my first play when I was drawing 6 cards per turn and my opponent couldn't draw anything that could stop me because although there were cards that could stop me, the luck of the draw (READ: NOT SKILL OR TACTICS OR STRATEGY) was preventing it. So, in essence, I was playing multi-player solitaire.

'nuff said.
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