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Subject: Just MAKE YOUR OWN! rss

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Chris Turner
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First off I just want to say that I'm pretty sad about Napoleon's in Milwaukee closing. Some might thing a game store is a game store is a game store, but it's not true. Nap's had a culture that really went well with the East side (snobbery) of town and wasn't a bunch of heschers from the waukesha area or sports cards guys that got into the magic craze. What to do when your neighborhood game store closes?

Secondly. Talisman 2nd edition. Went for $550 on ebay yesterday. It's not worth it. NOT because it's not a good game, good not great, but because you could spend 1/3rd of that and MAKE YOUR OWN SET. Find someone with the game and ask to borrow it for about 48 hours. Go to a printing company (not Kinkos) and color copy the entire thing, laminate the parts and mount the laminated board on a piece of wood or cardboard. I've seen it done before my very eyes. Yes it's copyright infringement, yes it's a bit unethical, but do YOU want to be stuck buying and incomplete 90$ 3rd edition talisman set from GW that they will not support with the 3rd edition expansions ever again?

Thirdly, Talisman Dragons. I own it. I've played with it and I can tell you that it killed the game in the same way the city board and dungeon board did. Your characters either ROCKET their strength up super fast or die off right quick. Thinking of playing a 2 strength 4 craft character? Forget it, the number of 7-8 strength monsters increased by about 25% overall so unless you draw the magic spring, you'll be racing about hoping to draw a goblin or bear for hours into the game all the while getting murdalized by all the dragons. The new characters that came with the set are pretty much a joke, and people rarely pick them unless in their first draw they grab something totally useless like the dwarf or elf. The magic items that came in the set are mostly clutter and only increase the chances of an early game character becoming the high mage making magic item draws FAR too common.

End of rant.
 
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SAKURA in KYOTO 2018 Back to Kansai
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just a tad
Quote:
yes it's a bit unethical

Home photocopying is killing gaming. arrrh
 
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Mark Haberman
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I don't think I'd go that far! laugh
 
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Stefan Alexander
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Quote:
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yes it's a bit unethical

Home photocopying is killing gaming. arrrh


This is ridiculous. It will almost always cost more to copy a game yourself than it will to buy it (if it's in print). Why? You're only making one of them. So, the printing costs are going to be huge, and the manufacturer, even if they only make 1,000 copies, will get such a huge discount on printing that even when adding in the publisher's profit, royalties, shipping, distributors, and retailer's profits, it will still be cheaper.

The only reason it's cheaper in this case is because the game is ridiculously overpriced because it's OOP. And since it's out of print, the publisher shouldn't care if you buy a $500 copy, or if you make one yourself - they're still not getting any money.

Unethical? Maybe... but no way can home photocopying EVER kill gaming. The economies of scale in the printing business guarantee it.
 
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Steve Bachman
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Quote:
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yes it's a bit unethical

Home photocopying is killing gaming. arrrh


For a game in print, I tend to agree. For OOP games going for unreal amounts, I tend to be less righteous about it. I don't think hurting the second-hand market (or those who are merely 'investors') hurts the gaming market that much. I haven't made my own game yet, but that is just my on it.
 
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Tom Key
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I was thinking this the other day...
For example, if a game is no longer in print and the publisher has long since shut up shop, with little or no hope of a reprint (Avalon Hill springs to mind, but there are others - GDW etc), is a copy still going to kill gaming?

I understand entirely that it would cause market problems where a game is currently, or soon to be available. And despite the "make your own", the authenticity/collectability of a game is what gives it its value surely? A fake just isnt worth the money?

CCGs and presumably collectable minis all have this flaw. In the Star Wars minis range, I still have no Obi-Wan. I know exactly what his stats and abilities are, so I substitute another figure (Homer Simpson, say ) and just use him instead... but only coz I'm not prepared to spend £15 on Ebay to get a genuine Obi Wan...
arrrh
 
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Andrew Faehnle
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I worry that if game self-publishing becomes too prevalent (whatever that means) in the case of in-print games, then publishers will react in a manner similar to how the american RIAA is handling mp3 sharing.

In other words, if an angry publisher sees that rules and all the components manifests (along with high quality photos or scans of acutal game parts) are available on BGG, they will probably try to go after BGG for hosting the copyrighted materials. I'd hate to see BGG go down for something that silly, because we all know that that's not what this site is about. Unfortunately, lawyers don't often care about our intentions.

 
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Jeffrey D Myers
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OSP Registration
Aldie and Derk,

In view of this thread, it would be a good idea to register the Geek at: http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/. This helps insulate you from liability if you jump through the correct hoops if you get a complaint.

sauron sauron sauron

(Should be labeled :attorney:, in that attorney and Sauron are synonymous. )
 
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Sean Swart
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So much about nothing
It's out of print, your making a copy for personal use. I think that is a fine idea, and does NO harm to the publisher at all.

The publisher sold all the games that were made. So, there is no enfringment. The only person that might be hurt is that one butt munch trying to sell a 50 dollar game for 500!

I have no problem with that.
 
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Steve Downin
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$550?!?!

Maybe I should put my copy up on eBay. It would even include "Talsiman: The Adventure" and "Talisman: Dungeon." Mayhaps that would kick it up over the $600 mark.

Do you have a link to the $550 auction?
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Quote:
It's out of print, your making a copy for personal use. I think that is a fine idea, and does NO harm to the publisher at all.

The publisher sold all the games that were made. So, there is no enfringment. The only person that might be hurt is that one butt munch trying to sell a 50 dollar game for 500!

I have no problem with that.


Except now that the publisher is looking at its library of games to reprint, it turns out everyone has already copied the next one they were going to do, so there is no demand, and POOF - publisher out of business.
 
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Chris Turner
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Steve, it had everything fairly mint, even the Dragons expansion. That's probably the going rate for an opened set. My friend was looking at it and I constantly lambasted him for his idoicy. It's STILL JUST PIECES OF PAPER AND CARDBOARD.
 
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Chris Turner
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Quote:
Quote:
It's out of print, your making a copy for personal use. I think that is a fine idea, and does NO harm to the publisher at all.

The publisher sold all the games that were made. So, there is no enfringment. The only person that might be hurt is that one butt munch trying to sell a 50 dollar game for 500!

I have no problem with that.


Except now that the publisher is looking at its library of games to reprint, it turns out everyone has already copied the next one they were going to do, so there is no demand, and POOF - publisher out of business.


You have to look at it on a case by case basis. Talisman 2nd edition in the minds of the publishers (GW) and the Designers (Jervis Johnson on 3rd) has been eclipsed by 3rd. If there is a reprint, it will be 3rd edition, not second. Gamers know that 2nd edition is the one to have for various reasons, but it will NEVER be republished. I am basically against both board game and software piracy, but then it keeps some games in the eye of the public that then generates interest in a new version!
 
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Andrew Faehnle
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OOP = no legal defense
Out of print isn't a legal defense. The owner (or licensor) of a copyrighted work would still be able to take legal action.

I'm not arguing ethics; I just don't want to see BGG hurt as a result of people self-printing others games from files that BGG makes readily available.
 
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Steve Bachman
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Quote:
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It's out of print, your making a copy for personal use. I think that is a fine idea, and does NO harm to the publisher at all.

The publisher sold all the games that were made. So, there is no enfringment. The only person that might be hurt is that one butt munch trying to sell a 50 dollar game for 500!

I have no problem with that.


Except now that the publisher is looking at its library of games to reprint, it turns out everyone has already copied the next one they were going to do, so there is no demand, and POOF - publisher out of business.


Actually, if everyone has already made a copy of the next one they were going to do, then the publisher would only be out of business if it actually reprinted the game. Most publishers would be able to discern that the game has enough homemade copies already and not reprint it. So, in actuality, the publisher is being saved money. The cost of printing a game for market is none too cheap, and this would be saved. And, if that publisher is sitting on the rights to the game instead of publishing it when the game is 'hot' (i.e. before the copies are made), then they lost out due to their inactivity, not due to people making their own versions.
 
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Andrew Faehnle
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copylaw.com
From http://copylaw.com/new_articles/copy_myths.html

"TEN COMMON COPYRIGHT PERMISSION MYTHS"

Quote:
8. The material I want to quote is from a an out-of-print book. That means the work is in the public domain.

Not necessarily. Out-of-print does not mean out-of- copyright. When a book goes out-of-print it is a temporary state. The rights generally revert to the author, which means the underlying copyright remains unaffected.
 
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First off I just want to say that I'm pretty sad about Napoleon's in Milwaukee closing. Some might thing a game store is a game store is a game store, but it's not true. Nap's had a culture that really went well with the East side (snobbery) of town and wasn't a bunch of heschers from the waukesha area or sports cards guys that got into the magic craze. What to do when your neighborhood game store closes?


The local store around here closed a few years back. It was a pretty good store. The owners were nice people and they had lots of table space to game. Definitely a hang out for a lot of kids/young adults.

I still think there was things that could have been done to make the business more profitable, but I wasn't the one making decisions.

Anyways, it's still a bummer, now it's a 45 min drive to a decent store. A new store opened up locally last year, but their main focus is on LAN gaming. They have 1 table for regular gaming (MtG or Board) but nobody really shows up. Only for weekly MtG drafts does anyone besides the LAN guys show up. They only care MtG packs, no singles, no board games, etc. Although he says he can order most any game and have it there in a few days.
 
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fishhaid
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Game copying
I've got an unpunched copy of Borderlands that I got on ebay. After seeing the pieces (cardboard), Map (paper) and rules, while the game is great, I'm going to copy it and resell it to someone who's more interested in the original. Eon no longer exists, it's for my home use and there's no other way to get the game.

As for Talisman, I love the game, but it went from a enjoyable dungeon crawl game to a monstrous 4+ hour extravaganza (sp?). Adding the city, dungeon, dragons, timescape, made it a different game. At some point, I will sell the expansions and keep the original. It's just soo hard to say goodbye...
 
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Ken H.
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It's out of print, your making a copy for personal use. I think that is a fine idea, and does NO harm to the publisher at all.

The publisher sold all the games that were made. So, there is no enfringment. The only person that might be hurt is that one butt munch trying to sell a 50 dollar game for 500!

I have no problem with that.


Except now that the publisher is looking at its library of games to reprint, it turns out everyone has already copied the next one they were going to do, so there is no demand, and POOF - publisher out of business.



Also, the law isn't "Do no harm".

It's "Make no copies". Harm to the copyright holder is irrelevant to the question of whether there is infringement.
 
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Steve Bachman
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Change of Topic
How did this journal entry veer off course from a question of ethics to a question of legalities?

By any measure, copying the art and rules of a game is strictly illegal without the copyright holder's permission. However, illegal does not mean unethical. Similarly, being ethical does not mean being legal. They are two separate animals.

Nonetheless, in regards to boardgames, most are not patented and are only protected by copyright. If you want to make your own game (and if it is within your personal ethics to do so), leave the photocopier alone and generate your own artwork and rulebook based on the system of the game. As long as the words are yours and the artwork is as well, and as long as you do not sell the game for commercial gain, you will have solid footing in court. Whether you have solid footing come judgement day is between you and whichever god you believe in. devil definitely won't mind, but who can speak for the rest?
 
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Andrew Faehnle
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How did this journal entry veer off course from a question of ethics to a question of legalities?

By any measure, copying the art and rules of a game is strictly illegal without the copyright holder's permission. However, illegal does not mean unethical. Similarly, being ethical does not mean being legal. They are two separate animals.

Nonetheless, in regards to boardgames, most are not patented and are only protected by copyright. If you want to make your own game (and if it is within your personal ethics to do so), leave the photocopier alone and generate your own artwork and rulebook based on the system of the game. As long as the words are yours and the artwork is as well, and as long as you do not sell the game for commercial gain, you will have solid footing in court. Whether you have solid footing come judgement day is between you and whichever god you believe in. devil definitely won't mind, but who can speak for the rest?


Steve,

That's actually (and somewhat surprisingly) not the case. Derivative works (such as Star Wars fan fiction, and the like) are also violations of copyright. Most companies allow them because they often increase the value of the originals in the franchise.

Again from the above-referenced copylaw.com site:

Quote:
4. I don't need permission because I'm going to adapt the original work.

Copyright law grants copyright owners the exclusive right to control modifications of their works. If you add a new layer of copyrighted material to a previously existing work, you have created a derivative work. If done without permission of the copyright owner you, may have violated the owner's copyright.
 
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Steve Bachman
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Again from the above-referenced copylaw.com site:

4. I don't need permission because I'm going to adapt the original work.

Copyright law grants copyright owners the exclusive right to control modifications of their works. If you add a new layer of copyrighted material to a previously existing work, you have created a derivative work. If done without permission of the copyright owner you, may have violated the owner's copyright.
[/q]

Operative word being "may". It does not state that you "have" violated a copyright, only that there is a possibility that you have. Again, if you make the "derivative" copy for your own use (do not sell it), the chances of a publisher going after you for it will be nil because it comes down to a judgement, not a definite legal victory.

Also, again this matters little to the beginning of this thread, which was about the ethics of making a copy of your own game.
 
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Andrew Faehnle
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This matters little to the beginning of this thread, which was about the ethics of making a copy of your own game.


I disagree. If people openly discuss creating derivative works or homemade copies of copyrighted works, then copyright holders have enough ammo to send DMCA takedown notices and cease-and-desist letters from lawyers, which affects this list and this entire site, whether or not it is ethical, the legal theory being that BGG is providing the tools for infringement.
 
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Steve Bachman
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BGG Shutdown?!?!?
Why would the lawyers get a court order to shut down BGG instead of having the offended material deleted? Counter scans, map scans, copying instructions, etc. get deleted and the Geek lives on with it's reviews, comments, trading, etc.

Your doom and gloom scenario just seems a bit farfetched, considering Cyberboard has already tackled these problems successfully.
 
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Aaron Potter
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Why would the lawyers get a court order to shut down BGG instead of having the offended material deleted? Counter scans, map scans, copying instructions, etc. get deleted and the Geek lives on with it's reviews, comments, trading, etc.


This is, in fact, the case as far as American copyright law goes:
Under "Title 17" ( http://www.copyright.gov/title17/ ) administered by the US Copyright Office, individuals may make use of the "Fair Use" provision under section 107, which states that material reproduced:
[q]
...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.[/q[

More importantly for the Geek, under section 512, BGG is not liable for damages if you do, in fact, infringe anyone's copyright. As long as the material is posted to a "transient storage" medium, such as a website, it can be removed without penalty if there is a complaint.
 
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