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Just thought I would ask this question as it appears to me that (A) the spirit of LCGs seems to be consistent with the philosophy of buying one copy of anything should be all you need, and (B), deluxe expansions featuring Greyjoy and Martell have been made at this point.

As of this post, FFG has completed FOUR series of chapter packs (and just started the FIFTH series), has released THREE deluxe expansions (one featuring Greyjoy and one featuring Martell, basically bringing them up to speed with the Core Houses; the third deluxe expansion featuring Stark; a fourth announced deluxe expansion will feature Baratheon).

When the game first launched, I know many experienced AGoTers from the CCG days were recommending purchasing multiple Core sets for an adequate deckbuilding experience. But since the card selection has gone up much more since launch, I'd be curious to ask members of the more experienced AGoT crowd whether they think that purchasing more than one copy of the Core Set is still essential for an adequate deckbuilding experience?

Subjective, I know, but I'd still be interested to read thoughts on the matter.
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I have 2 core sets. I have found it essential to being able to have 4 decks built at once (since I am the only person in the group that has the game).

Having multiples of the locations and plot cards from the core set is extremely useful for building multiple decks, not to mention multiples of characters from the core set (and in some cases plots like power of arms) in your deck help make your decks more potent/reliable.

Having said that, for casual play, 1 copy of the core set, 1 copy of each chapter pack and the deluxe expansions will give you a nice pool of cards to play around with.
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When FFG switched AGoT to an LCG, they had not adopted their current model of 3 of each card in chapter packs. The core set itself is almost exclusively singles (as is the other core set LCG's, as they choose to put in more variety of cards instead of triple copies of a smaller number), and each of the first 24 chapter packs are 40 cards: 10 singles and 10 triple copy cards.

Whether or not you need more than a single copy of anything is up to you. If you get into trying to build the best deck possible, then you might want 3 copies of a particularly strong event card, or a non unique character that fits in perfectly with your deck design. In those cases, you might find you need multiple core sets or an extra chapter pack.

If you aren't trying to be perfect, then there are so many cards that one of each will give you enough options to satisfy any amount of deck building you want to do.
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Nate Parkes
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"Can purchasing only ONE copy of everything gives everyone enough deckbuilding choices?"

Short answer: Absolutely

Long Answer:

Tumulorum Fossor wrote:
Just thought I would ask this question as it appears to me that (A) the spirit of LCGs seems to be consistent with the philosophy of buying one copy of anything should be all you need, and (B), deluxe expansions featuring Greyjoy and Martell have been made at this point.


I had this same opinion when I first bought into the LCG format, and this expectation was sometimes frustrated. But I came to appreciate that FFG was venturing into unexplored territory here, and trying to appeal to what they percieved as two different fan bases: the hardcore and the casual gamer. They made some mistakes (Kings of the Sea), but in general they did a great job and now that they've switched to the full x3 distribution, everyone should be pleased (if not ecstatic).

Quote:
When the game first launched, I know many experienced AGoTers from the CCG days were recommending purchasing multiple Core sets for an adequate deckbuilding experience. But since the card selection has gone up much more since launch, I'd be curious to ask members of the more experienced AGoT crowd whether they think that purchasing more than one copy of the Core Set is still essential for an adequate deckbuilding experience?


Here's the deal: The Core Set does not have a full x3 distribution of cards (and it won't be reprinted as such; reprints will keep to the original distribution, which is mostly x1 except for some in-house resource locations). The Core Set is designed to be a self-contained, richly varied play experience for 2-4 players. It's not designed to, by itself, be a complete deckbuilding resource.

Purchasing more than one copy of the Core Set is still recommended if you want an adequate deckbuilding experience with the cards from the core set. For example, if you want to build a Targaryen burn deck based around cards like "Forever Burning" and "Flame Kissed," you'll want more than one copy of each of those cards in your deck. These cards aren't necessarily for a perfectly satisfactory experience with game of thrones, but if you are playing against other players who have purchased multiple copies of the Core Set (say, in a tournament), you aren't going to be able to run the same deck as them.

However, if the idea of purchasing more than one copy of any given product gets in your craw (and I can sympathize with the feeling), this is my recommendation: Buy one copy of the Core Set, one copy of the Stark Deluxe Expansion (Lords of Winter), one copy of the Baratheon Deluxe Expansion (Kings of the Storm), and one copy of each of the chapter packs for the next cycle (Brotherhood without Banners). Aside from the Core Set, all of these products come with full deckbuilding materials.

This will give you a complete deckbuilding experience for Stark and Baratheon, and until the Targaryen and Lannister deluxe expansions come out, you can shuffle around the income/discount locations from the Core Set to build up the Lannister and Targaryen decks, and then use the cards from the chapter packs to build and tweak them into focused, 60-card decks. Obviously, Stark and Baratheon will initially have the more deckbuilding options, but you'll still be able to create interesting decks for each house.

As for the previous cycles of Chapter Packs, you can pick and choose, get them all, or disregard them entirely. If full deckbuilding potential is important to you, then the x1/x3 distribution of the first four chapter pack cycles may aggravate you at times.

Caveat: There are certain basic plots in the Core Set (such as Valar Morghulis) that are foundational in some types of decks. If you only have one copy of the Core Set, you'll only be able to build one such deck at a time.
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The answer is absolutely. Whether you will be fully satisfied with it in that format is of course a rather personal thing. I can tell you this with absolute certainty, you can build a competitive deck with only one of everything printed. It may not however be the competitive deck you would opt to build if you had a full play set of everything.

What I'd suggest is to go the x1 one route as you learn the game and then trade or buy multiples of whatever you feel you really must have more of. Because of the release schedule for Thrones by the time you feel comfortable with the game, have determined your favorite house and mechanics, and developed your play skills to the point where you are going to be able to build competitive decks you will have the entire Brotherhood cycle out along with the Baratheon Deluxe Expansion out which will give you plenty of cards in full play set to build a competitive deck from. You can use the x1 cards from the other cycles to splash some variety and redundancy into your deck.

A lot of it is going to be determined by how you choose to approach the game, and what mind set you take about it. It really is very personal, if you see it as an excellent way to get some variety while you learn the game and give you enough deck building options to cut your teeth you'll have a satisfying experience. If you look at it as s flaw of design and you'll always be behind those who have everything x3 or x9 you will not enjoy it.
 
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Quote:
A lot of it is going to be determined by how you choose to approach the game, and what mind set you take about it. It really is very personal, if you see it as an excellent way to get some variety while you learn the game and give you enough deck building options to cut your teeth you'll have a satisfying experience. If you look at it as s flaw of design and you'll always be behind those who have everything x3 or x9 you will not enjoy it.


Yes, I agree that it is very personal.
And that's why I posed the question in the first place: I really wanted to see where people stood on the theory behind LCGs in the first place. Clearly, they're doing well with FFG, as they currently have three in production (AGoT, CoC, W:I), and two in the pipleline (LOTR; BloodBowl).

And the reason I didn't post this in the FFG AGoT forum is because this one is boardgame based. I've always felt there was something a little NON-boardgamey about collectible games (as opposed to games with fixed expansions). Not that there's anything wrong with collectibility, but it does introduce a financial component to the metagame which I personally find detracting to the experience.

AGoT is unique among the other LCGs in that it represents a transition from CCG to LCG formats WITHIN THE SAME GAME. So I understand the need to appeal to both those who harbor some degree of collectibility appeal versus those who appreciate the fixed boundaries offered by the boardgame model. I understand the appeal of unlimited purchases of sets of cards, but I personally simply enjoy the universal constraint imposed by a fixed inventory.

For me, personally, I want an AGoT game experience with BOTH a rich deckbuilding component, AND boundaries offered by fixed expansion. I just wanted to get an idea as to how much my deckbuilding experience is suffering by my self-imposed strict "only ONE copy of every expansion" rule. Initially, the deckbuilding was severely limited by that rule. Now, it seems, not so much.

Which I see as A Good Thing, because I do think it is more in the spirit of LCGs in the BOARDGAME mold, rather than the traditional CCG mold. It is, however, nice to see the options wide open for both styles of play. But I would like to see an alternative tournament format for limited LCG (LLCG?), wherein only one copy of each LCG product was allowed. I just think it would make for more interesting choices. Or at least different choices. Under that format, if FFG felt only one copy of a card should be allowable, well, then, they'd only PUT once copy of said card into any given LCG product.

Anyway, in summary, I do think it is good to have choices. I'm just glad that under a Limited LCG format (that is, ONE copy of LCG product per player), it seems that AGoT has reached the point wherein there exists a sophisticated deckbuilding experience.
 
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Oh, one last thing.

Given that FFG is going to the "3 copies of each card with each expansion from now on" (though personally I would rather that they go to a "however many copies we publish in this expansion is the limit per deck" format), wouldn't it make sense for them to release a "AGoT Core II" set, that perhaps would bring copies of all the cards from Core I up to 3, and, at the same time, give the equivalent cards to Martell and Greyjoy that the other houses started with (though they arguably already got their boosts in their deluxe expansions)?

Or if the Greyjoy and Martell "Core Set Equivalents" are already considered present by the Deluxe, to consider a small set of new cards with rough equivalents across all seven (counting neutral) houses for a "Core II" product?

Or maybe not.

Whatever. Just sayin'.
 
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Tumulorum Fossor wrote:
...wouldn't it make sense for them to release a "AGoT Core II" set, that perhaps would bring copies of all the cards from Core I up to 3, and, at the same time, give the equivalent cards to Martell and Greyjoy that the other houses started with (though they arguably already got their boosts in their deluxe expansions)?


I understand your thinking on this one, but I believe the answer is ultimately no. The problem is that such a product would a) appeal to too small a market, and b) possible cannibalize existing product.

Let's say a Core Set II would contain everything so that, in combination with 1 copy of Core Set I, Princes of the Sun, and Kings of the Sea, you would have x3 copies of every card. This, in general, would mean the Core Set II contains most of the cards from the Core Set I x2, all of the cards from Kings of the Sea x2, and 1x copy of every card in Princes of the Sun.

a) Market: This product is only going to appeal to the "competitive" gamer who is willing to spend a significantly higher sum of money to get three copies of every card, and who hasn't already done this by buying multiple copies of existing product. Most of the "competitive" gamers I know have bought 2 or 3 copies of existing products like the Core Set, etc. They wouldn't buy a "Core Set II," because they wouldn't need to. Hence, FFG has to expect they're going to sell significantly fewer copies, so they'd have to raise the price per box in order to recoup their manufacturing expenses. Keep in mind, for that amount of cards, the pricetag would easily be over $100.

b) Cannibalization: Let's say they did produce a "Core Set II", which was basically most of the cards from the Core Set I x2, all of the cards from Kings of the Sea x2, and 1x copy of every card in Princes of the Sun. Would anyone ever buy the Core Set I again? Would anyone ever buy Kings of the Sea, or Princes of the Sun? If the Core Set II is cheaper than the sum of all those other products, then it cannibalizes them. No one will buy the original product, and FFG either has to offer to buy back the original product or earn the bad will of stores that have stocked it.

Once again, I totally get where you're coming from. I kind of wished they would do this, too. But it's not good business sense, so it probably won't happen.
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I no longer offer opinions about such things. FFG's top brass will make whatever decision they feel is best.

I personally feel the only loss of the limited format from the beginning to deck building options was when you played with those who wouldn't buy into it. If you check the oldest posts on the FFG AGoT forum (and a number of relatively recent ones) you'll find quite a few players who did this from the beginning and see that they had very positive experiences with the deck building options available to them.

You are forced to build and play decks differently when you only have 1 of a card or 3 of a card than when you have 3 of a card or 9 of a card. I honestly don't think the full play-set player decks are automatically better, especially in this game, where unique characters can be come dead draws, and search effects are pretty easily available.

I personally think this is a great time to be getting into the game.

If you were to purchase everything right now the Core Set and Deluxe Expansions break down to -

Core Set 204 (176 x1, 8 x2, 4 x3)
KotS 54 (47 x1)
PotS 120 (53 x2, 7 x1)
LoW 165 (55 x3)

That is 543 cards to build decks with, a fair amount though admittedly not every House is equally represented. Then you add the Chapter Packs to this -

CoA 240 (60 x1, 60 x3)
AToR 240 (60 x1, 60 x3)
KLE 240 (60 x1, 60 x3)
DotN 240 (60 x1, 60 x3)
BwB 60 (20 x3) - new distribution format.

And that is 1,020 more cards for a total of 1,563 (463 x1, 61 x2, 359 x3). This game can be played for enjoyment in just about any conceivable fashion with numbers like that, even a pure highlander format.
 
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Re: So has AGoT LCG finally hit critical mass such that purchasing only ONE copy of everything gives evel,ryone enough deckbuilding choices?
Quote:
But it's not good business sense, so it probably won't happen.


Well, recognizing that even with a great discussion wherein we both come up with the perfect AGoT MASTER PLAN, that nothing will happen as neither of us have any sway with FFG, what would you think of a product that has the following?

A) All the cards necessary to bring all six houses up to 3 copies of their Core Foundation Cards (including Martell and Greyjoy with their Deluxe expansions), with corrected errata and, if possible, alternative artwork.

B) A set of AGoT DRAFT cards, like those included with Warhammer: Invasion. I really think (as I posted somewhere in this forum) that Joust AGoT Core really shines when there's a Plot card draft. The W:I Draft cards make card drafts unique and are very interesting (if you haven't seen them, you can find them in W:I CORE).

The research/playtest costs should be low as the only new cards being introduced are an optional draft variant that doesn't really interfere with the guts of the game. The bulk of the cards will be reprints. Even the draft cards themselves will be first cousins to the already published W:I draft cards.

The players who already have their inventory to three will get a draft product. They will also be able to possibly use the extra foundation cards as they are also the same customers who likely keep multiple decks on-hand anyway.

OR, if outrage demands, the draft cards could be offered as a separate product altogether (but also included in the Core II product).

So, there!

But keep in mind: I've never published a single game in my life. Heck, it's a wonder I can get my fricking printer to work (mostly).
 
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Tumulorum Fossor wrote:
Recognizing that even with a great discussion wherein we both come up with the perfect AGoT MASTER PLAN, that nothing will happen as neither of us have any sway with FFG, what would you think of a product that has the following?

A) All the cards necessary to bring all six houses up to 3 copies of their Core Foundation Cards (including Martell and Greyjoy with their Deluxe expansions), with corrected errata and, if possible, alternative artwork.

B) A set of AGoT DRAFT cards, like those included with Warhammer: Invasion. I really think (as I posted somewhere in this forum) that Joust AGoT Core really shines when there's a Plot card draft. The W:I Draft cards make card drafts unique and are very interesting (if you haven't seen them, you can find them in W:I CORE).

The research/playtest costs should be low as the only new cards being introduced are an optional draft variant that doesn't really interfere with the guts of the game. The bulk of the cards will be reprints. Even the draft cards themselves will be first cousins to the already published W:I draft cards.

The players who already have their inventory to three will get a draft product. They will also be able to possibly use the extra foundation cards as they are also the same customers who likely keep multiple decks on-hand anyway.

OR, if outrage demands, the draft cards could be offered as a separate product altogether (but also included in the Core II product).


I think the draft card idea is a good one. When I played Warhammer: Invasion, I thought the draft cards were really cool, and I wished I had something like it for Game of Thrones. As it is, when I play Core Set joust, we always draft plots.

I could envision a "Draft Joust" product, which basically contained a deck for each of two houses, a lot of important neutral cards, and the draft cards. They could make three different products (3 combinations of the 6 houses) which would allow for a lot of variety in the drafts through combining sets.

But I still don't think there's any sense in making a new product that reprints the core set cards. The card overlap (extraneous cards over x3) from three copies of the core set is only about 24 cards, ignoring in-house discount/income locations (which you'll want for building multiple decks of the same house) and the neutral event "Distinct Mastery" (which you'll want in multiple decks).

In order to build a competitive product (and they’d be competing with themselves), they’d have to offer almost exactly the same cards that are in two copies of the core set, at a price point significantly lower than the MSRP of two core sets. But this product would have a much smaller print run than the core set, so it would cost them more to produce (per unit compared to two units of the core set). Even if they still could turn a profit on it, they’d be making a smaller profit per unit than the money they’d be making if someone bought two copies of the core set, AND they’d be earning the ill will of all the stores who have already stocked the core set, since they’re effectively offering a cheaper version of the same product these stores may have just purchased the month before.

If they included cards to "upgrade" Kings of the Sea and Princes of the Sun to x3, that means they'd be effectively including two copies of Kings of the Sea and 1/2 a copy of Princes of the Sun, which would probably push the price point up by another $30-40. And by that point, we're talking about a +$100 product here, which would effectively be just a box of cards, without any of the "dazzle" of the big box games but the same huge price tag. It would be a huge investment in a small print run of a game with a big potential to scare away gamers with its big price tag, and it would be a tough sell to distributors and stores than have effectively already bought the same product already, albeit in smaller boxes.

And ss you’ve predicted, adding draft cards to the "Core Set II" would anger customers who had already purchased multiple copies of the core set, and they would probably demand to be able to purchase the draft cards separately. So FFG would either have to leave these gamers unsatisfied, or do an even smaller print run of a "Draft Cards" product, which would probably be only 20 cards, but which, due to the small print run, would probably have to be priced well over $10. This would further anger customers, and if it didn’t sell well, FFG wouldn’t be able to recoup their investment.

And in regards to errata and alternative artwork, reprints of the core set already contain the most recent errata, and alternative artwork would be prohibitively expensive (since all the current artwork for the core set is reprinted from previous sets) and would be visually confusing (since you would have two cards that were the same card but looked very different).

I apologize for coming off as such a naysayer to this idea; I just don't think it's sound. I completely appreciate the perspectives of a) not wanting to have to buy the same product twice, and b) wanting to buy a "new" product that "fixes" the previous product, by upgrading it to the x3 distribution. But I think any resources that FFG could invest in such a product would be better spent on a new product containing new cards: like a new product containing the draft cards you'd mentioned. I'd certainly buy that.

Once again, this is just my opinion. I don't have access to FFG's rates for design/manufacturing/shipping, so what I've said is based on general observations of their practices. But the Core Set is such a good product (both singularly and in multiples) that I find it hard to believe they would publish a product to compete with it.

But draft sets... that could be really cool.
 
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I do wish they'd remove the Stupid Kraken house card from Kings of the Sea. It basically doubles the price of the box and makes starting Greyjoy prohibitively expensive - especially because you'll have 2 useless lumps of resin lying around after you buy enough copies of Kigns of the Sea to get 3 copies of all Greyjoy cards.

That said, I don't mind how they're distributing the core set, and I think I'm going to be picking up another copy of it soon. I don't even really mind how they're distributing the Martell core stuff because you can always split between two people.
 
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evilm2twjunkie wrote:
I do wish they'd remove the Stupid Kraken house card from Kings of the Sea. It basically doubles the price of the box and makes starting Greyjoy prohibitively expensive - especially because you'll have 2 useless lumps of resin lying around after you buy enough copies of Kigns of the Sea to get 3 copies of all Greyjoy cards.


Yeah, FFG realized they had made a blunder with Kings of the Sea. They probably had planned to do Princes of the Sun the exact same way (with the sculpted house card), but the customer response to the pricing of Kings of the Sea led them to double the cards in Princes of the Sun and keep out the house.

That having been said, I don't think they'll reprint Kings of the Sea without the house card. Once a product has been published and sold to distributors, I think it's generally considered poor policy to publish almost the exact same product, but cheaper; all the retailers that bought the original product are now stuck with something unsellable, while they have to buy the same thing over again.

Generally, I recommend that people who are dabbling in the game get the Core Set and Princes of the Sun, and if they decide to get real hardcore, they can bite the bullet and buy x3 copies of Kings of the Sea.

Quote:
That said, I don't mind how they're distributing the core set, and I think I'm going to be picking up another copy of it soon. I don't even really mind how they're distributing the Martell core stuff because you can always split between two people.


Exactly what I'm doing.
 
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