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Subject: A few Questions about some Nile Cards, Fields and Sphinx Card bonus?? rss

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Matthew Lock
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1) If you have the card that lets you draw two free sphinx cards, do they give you points when you put them back with the unused cards?

2) If you have the card that lets you upgrade a field, and say you use it to upgrade a fully parched (brown) field to a middle level (yellow) field, and you have the sphinx card that gives you points for the most productive yellow fields, do you count the upgraded fields.

Thanks!
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Kevin Wood
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Yes on both counts. Note that you must do at least one work at the Sphinx site in order to claim your two extra cards.

Upgraded fields count as the color they are upgraded to.
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Matthew Lock
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Ok Thanks!
 
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Jeff Binning
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Quote:
Yes on both counts. Note that you must do at least one work at the Sphinx site in order to claim your two extra cards.


We've been playing you must have a ship on the space, but may then just draw the two cards without paying for a "work". We're basing this on the description of the card in the rules:

"The player may draw 2 additional
sphinx cards (maximum still 5). He
pays no stones for the additional
cards. He may draw just 2 cards and
use 0 stones.

This can only be used if the player
has a ship on a building space of the
sphinx."
 
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Vital Lacerda
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2010 - Vinhos, 2012 - CO2, 2014 - kanban, 2015 - The Gallerist, 2016 - Vinhos Deluxe, 2017 - Lisboa, 2018 - Escape Plan, CO2 Second Chance and Dragon Keepers - Maybe: 2019 - ROTW Portugal and On Mars, 2020 - Kanban Deluxe Edition
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I think you must take at least one card, using stones to get that bonus.
As the rules states "The player may draw 2 additional
sphinx cards"

edit,
ops, i didn't see the "you may draw only 2 cards using 0 stones' rule.
That also means that you don't need to use your worker too.
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Hansi
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Quote:
"He may draw just 2 cards and
use 0 stones.
"

This is the translation of the first (and incorrect) version of the German rules.
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Jeff Binning
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Quote:
This is the translation of the first (and incorrect) version of the German rules.


So at least one card must be bought before using this special card. I'll deliver the bad news to my game group. Thanks!
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Vital Lacerda
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That makes more sense doesn't it? I mean, the part of drawing at least one card using stone and a worker, not the bad news message whistle
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Jeff Binning
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Quote:
That makes more sense doesn't it? I mean, the part of drawing at least one card using stone and a worker, not the bad news message whistle



Yes, it does make sense, though we were going by the rules as printed in my version. Some people find this card too powerful, and this rule will diminish its impact a bit. A change for the better.
 
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Adam Kunsemiller
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kvn299 wrote:
Upgraded fields count as the color they are upgraded to.


Kevin,

How sure are you on this point? The reason I asked is we actually analyzed it quite a bit. Here's my case for it not working that way.

The text for the upgrade card in the rules is as follows:
Quote:

The player allocates this card to one of his grain fields and thereby improves its ability to produce by 1 level in all cases for the entire game.


Note it states explicitly that what it is modifying is the fields ability to produce, but not the field actual type.

Quote:
The wording from the rulebook on the sphinx card is:

"You have the most productive (Green) fields" which has an example stating:
Example: The player has this sphinx card and the two yellowish green fields, which show a total of 11. No other player has more. The player receives 7 points."


So my thinking is simply that the Nile card is modifying the fields ability to produce, but not the actual type of the card (based on the text of the card explanation in the rules.)

And on another note:
BrerBear2 wrote:
This is the translation of the first (and incorrect) version of the German rules.


Is there any official errata on the "+2 cards" card? Do you have a source you can quote for this statement? The rules clearly indicate in multiple places that it can be used to draw cards without spending stone. In addition to the explicit statement that this is allowed, the even go further out of their way later to define the building bonus as only applying for people who spent stone. This leads me to believe that not only does it work that way, but they've accounted for it elsewhere in the rules stating that if you do get cards without paying for them, you *don't* get credit for it during the bonus for building step in the round.

What is not clear from the rules is if you need crew for these few cards. I think not, but it's not explicitly stated. They say every other piece of the puzzle (you need to have a boat there, you don't have to spend stone) but they don't mention if you still need the crew for it.

I realize this is splitting hairs and I promise I am not trying to be an ass here. I spent a very tiring 4 days teaching this game over and over to people non stop, reading the rulebook front to back probably 10 times as people had different questions, so I want to make sure I've got things right, and this is the forum for such nitpicking (I wouldn't argue this point in an actual game with friends if someone felt it should work differently). These are the only two areas in the entire rulebook that I feel are not handled or clearly explained in some way (the way a permanent upgrade affects the sphinx bonuses and the logistics behind the +2 cards card).

I've debated these two points as a demo'er quite a bit and can really see it going either way based on how you interpret the English rules. Official errata or forum posts by an authoritative sources (the designer) rather than a semantics argument (even thought that's what I did ) would be preferred. BrerBear2, I see that you implemented this, did you get that rules clarification from the designer? Your word is good enough for me
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Rik Van Horn
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Colorado_Jeff wrote:
Quote:
This is the translation of the first (and incorrect) version of the German rules.


So at least one card must be bought before using this special card. I'll deliver the bad news to my game group. Thanks!

There's an official ruling on this card and it says that you may draw 2 cards without using any crews. However you must pay at least 1 stone.

If you add a work crew of 1 to the 1 stone you must pay, you can draw 3 cards.

Edit: I've looked and looked for where I read this here and cannot find it. But I swear I read it.
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Adam Kunsemiller
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Phew, after all that typing I realized there was one more thing:

The "anytime" cards that allow you to boost a crew. Is it possible to save these until the end game scoring and use them in conjunction with a sphinx card that scores a crew?

For example: I my yellow crew is at 8, and I have the anytime card that lets me boost a crew temporarily by 4. At the end of the game, I still haven't used the anytime card, and I have the sphinx card that gives me one point for every member of my yellow crew. Can I then play the anytime card, increasing the crew from 8 to 12 and then scoring it?

I feel like the answer should be yes, but it's not clearly stated in the rules.

The relevant rules text:
Anytime card use:
The player may use this card at any time on one of his turns. Afterwards, he returns it to the box. (That "on one of his turns" could be a catch, is end game scoring considered one of his turns?)

The crew supplement card:
The player can add 3 strength to a construction crew, which he uses. (Again, this would be simple, but then there's that "which he uses." The crew isn't being used in the end game sphinx scoring ....)

The sphinx card example:
Example: the player receives 4 points if this construction crew has a strength 4 at the end the game. (not much clarification there)


My thinking is that this should be allowed, and here is my reasoning. The card that lets you boost a crew also shows the joker (the pointing taskmaster) on it. The *only* reason you would want to boost your joker rather then simply the crew the joker is helping is the end game scoring for the joker. Then again, that icon (the three crews and the joker with a question mark) is clearly the established icon for "a crew" and they may have simply printed it that way without a thought to this implication.
 
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Rik Van Horn
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I'd disagree with using the cards that add strength at the end of the game.

The rules say: The player may use this card at any time on one of his turns.
Afterwards, he returns it to the box.

When the final scoring occurs, everyone's turns are over.
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Adam Kunsemiller
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Rokkr wrote:
I'd disagree with using the cards that add strength at the end of the game.

The rules say: The player may use this card at any time on one of his turns.
Afterwards, he returns it to the box.

When the final scoring occurs, everyone's turns are over.


Rik, I can see this going either way. (I even highlighted that portion in my post, pointing out your exact reason for thinking that way) It feels like it should be allowed, as it is a fun clever use of the card.

Would you also disagree with turning in the "any time" card just prior to selling stone during end game scoring? What about the "any time" card that lets someone sell stone at a 1 for 1 basis?

I can really see it going either way. I feel like this card is poorly worded in general, it states "add strength" in the rules but doesn't clearly define that said strength is temporary (I believe it is). It's things like that which lead me to believe the wording of these rules isn't able to stand up to intensely rules lawyering. This is why I bring it up and ideally would like to see one of the designers chime in and set the record straight. I have geekmailed all the designers and will update my post if I hear anything.
 
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Hansi
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rhitmojo wrote:
And on another note:
BrerBear2 wrote:
This is the translation of the first (and incorrect) version of the German rules.


Is there any official errata on the "+2 cards" card? Do you have a source you can quote for this statement?


This is the official Egizia-site of the German publisher:

http://www.hans-im-glueck.de/230.0.html

Click on the tab "Fragen" and you'll find the errata/ rules clarification.

There you will find these sentences:

Quote:
Nil Karten
+ 2 Karten ansehen Permanent

Der Spieler muss 1 Schiff am Sphinx-Bauplatz haben. Dann muss er mindestens 1 Bautrupp und 1 Stein einsetzen. Dann erst kann er diese Permanent-Karte spielen.
Beispiele:
1 Arbeiter + 1 Stein + diese Permanent-Karte = Der Spieler zieht 3 Sphinx-Karten, behält eine, gibt 2 zurück und erhält sofort 2 Punkte.
0 Arbeiter + 0 Steine + diese Permanent-Karte = nicht möglich. (Auf diesem Baufeld wurde nicht gebaut, der Spieler muss sein Schiff zurücknehmen.)


Now use Google translator

EDIT:
You can also find some notes concerning the upgrade card.

You can also download the current German PDF rulebook on that site.

One of the game designers also plays on Yucata.de. He told me that the anytime card "double benefits of a round space" may not be used on Heliopolis. This was a bug in my implementation, I allowed it. But I think the rules are unclear in this point.

I would agree that the rules could have been written much better. Too much space for interpretation.

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Adam Kunsemiller
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Brer Bear2 wrote:
This is the official Egizia-site of the German publisher:

http://www.hans-im-glueck.de/230.0.html

Click on the tab "Fragen" and you'll find the errata/ rules clarification.


Thank you! I've created a list of frequent questions, misunderstandings, and mistakes when playing this game as a file, these clarifications have been added.

Just to be clear, based on that site, two things were clarified:

1) You must spend at least 1 stone and 1 crew to take advantage of the "+2 cards" card.
2) Upgraded fields count as their upgraded value when considering who has the most of a field type for sphinx bonus cards. (I.E. An upgraded yellow field is considered green during this end game scoring).
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Adam Kunsemiller
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I heard back from one of the designers and learned the following:

- The +2 card nile card requires the expenditure of at least one stone in order to be used.
- The upgrade field card does *not* apply to the end bonus sphinx cards (ie. a brown card with an upgrade still just counts as a brown card when determining who has the most productive brown fields)
- The temporary worker upgrade cards may *not* be used during end game scoring, they may only be used while building.

I will update my FAQ document accordingly.
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Rick Roppolo
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Thanks for the FAQ/clarification file, Adam. It was sorely needed. I have a couple of questions on the clarification of the clarification, followed by a general rant:

First:
rhitmojo wrote:
I heard back from one of the designers and learned the following:

- The +2 card nile card requires the expenditure of at least one stone in order to be used.


From your FAQ, version 1.2:
"The "+2 cards" card may NOT be used to get cards without spending stone. You must legally pay for at least one sphinx card, then you get two more then you had legally paid for, but still no more than 5. (This is based on rules errata from the Hans im Gluck website.)"

So to get the +2 bonus, do you need to:
A) spend at least one stone; or
B) spend at least one stone and one crew?

Second:
Quote:
- The upgrade field card does *not* apply to the end bonus sphinx cards (ie. a brown card with an upgrade still just counts as a brown card when determining who has the most productive brown fields)


This contradicts your earlier statement from the FAQ:
Quote:
For Sphinx cards regarding having the most productive of a field type, upgrades do change what the field counts as. So if you are trying to get "Most Productive Green Fields" and you have a yellow field with the upgrade on it, that yellow field counts as a green field. (This is based on rules clarification from the Hans im Gluck website.)


It also contradicts a forum post by Brer Bear2, who implemented the Yucata.de online version:
Brer Bear2 wrote:
if you have the sphinx card "You have the most productive green fields" and you upgraded a yellow-green field to a green field it will of course count as a green field during the final scoring.


So, are both the FAQ and the post by Brer Bear2 wrong on this issue?? It seems odd that you would treat a field as green for one purpose and brown for another purpose.

[RANT]
I've played this game about 20 times so far, and I still have no idea whether I'm playing it right. I'll say it: the English rules suck. Period. 3 flat out errors in the rulebook. Many, many instances where reasonable players disagree as to the plain meaning of game text or rulebook text. Cut and paste errors. Wrong card images. LAZY. To quote Chris Berman from ESPN, "C'mon, Man!!"

I think I would have preferred a rulebook with the following statement: "Here are some bits. Make up your own f*#@ing rules."

How many hours do I need to spend just to find out how the game is supposed to be played?? Do I really need to go to the publisher's website, find errata (in German), have it translated, debate the interpretation of the translation of the clarification, search for faqs, email the distributor, etc, etc.?

For that matter, why, why, in the name of all that is just, doesn't Rio Grande have the errata, in English, on their website? LAZY


Just a few examples:
I still don't know what I'm supposed to do with the "You can place a ship on a full building site" card. The ONLY help we get with this card from the rule book is an illustration showing blue, yellow and green boats on 3 squares of a building site with a red ship in front (possibly behind?) and this caption: "Red can build when speculating." Yeah, that's really helpful. When can red build? When does red burn the card? When placing the ship on spec or before building? My best guess, after lengthy debate in my group, is that you can place a ship on speculation as normal. If a player can't build, you can take that player's spot in the building que and you don't need to use the card. If not, red can build last, burning the card at that point. But honestly, I have no idea ...

And the other one, the "You can build first wherever you have a ship" card .... Rules say "On each building site where the player has a ship, he builds first." The use of "wherever" on the card and "each" in the rules suggests I can play this card at the beginning of the building phase, enabling me to build first in all three building sites (sphinx, grave/obelisk, pyramid/temple) this round as long as I have a ship in each site. I have no idea if this is right...

Regarding the card: "At the end of each round take one of the remaining cards." How stupid of me to think the card (and the rulebook) actually say what they mean. On page 4, a round is defined as having 7 phases, the last of which is "determine player sequence for the next round." So you can't use the free card until the NEXT round right? Apparently not!

From Adam's FAQ, version 1.2:
Quote:
The nile card that lets you take an unclaimed card is supposed to be used at the end of the "Place Boats" phase (rather then at the end of the turn as stated by the card), meaning that you would be able to take advantage of this extra card for the rest of that current round. (This is based on rules errata from the Hans im Gluck website.)

I don't think this is nitpicking. It makes a huge difference as to how you would play, and could completely change the outcome of the game.

Ok, now the "Obelisk bonus." I've seen repeated reference to this in the forums. I thought it was an Obelisk/graves bonus. Maybe it makes more sense game play wise for the bonus to be only for the obelisk. But from the rules:
Quote:
B. Obelisk and graves - score points and improve grain or stone markets
[description of building in obelisk and/or graves]
....
He records his points on the scoring track and moves one of his marking stones on either the stone market or the grain market 1 field downward.

Plain meaning: you get the bonus if you built in the obelisk OR the graves OR both. Is this wrong too? I have no fracking idea.

I'm usually pretty forgiving about this kind of stuff. Rule writing is hard, I get it. But how hard would it be to have one extra step before releasing the game: Give the finalized rules to a group of players who have never played the game before. It would only take 90 minutes for most of the errors and confusing rules to become apparent. There should be play testing AND rule testing.

I cannot in good conscience recommend this game to my friends on this side of the pond until the U.S. distributor corrects the rules, AND clarifies many rules, AND includes a rules errata in the box.
[/RANT]

Thanks again to Adam, who took the time to try to sort this mess out.

I wonder if anyone has ever played this game correctly from start to finish....
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Adam Kunsemiller
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Wow, thanks for such a thorough response! What I tried to do with the faq was highlight areas that the jury was still out on in yellow, and then if I heard anything official, update the faq with the official info.

My latest update was a result of hearing back directly from one of the designers when I asked him specific questions (like about the +2 card, and the upgrade cards interactions with sphinx cards, etc.) It looks like I wasn't as thorough as I should have been about cleaning up the document once I had heard from someone though.

One thing that was a little concerning for me is that when I did hear back from one of the designers (there was a team of designers for this game) he seemed careful to state that he is just providing his interpretation of the rules that Hans Im Gluk ultimately went with, which makes me wonder, do different members of that design group have different opinions? Did the info I got from one contradict the info someone else got from another (the person implementing the game on yucata, etc.) If so, that's not a very good sign

cubetap wrote:
From your FAQ, version 1.2:
"The "+2 cards" card may NOT be used to get cards without spending stone. You must legally pay for at least one sphinx card, then you get two more then you had legally paid for, but still no more than 5. (This is based on rules errata from the Hans im Gluck website.)"

So to get the +2 bonus, do you need to:
A) spend at least one stone; or
B) spend at least one stone and one crew?


My understanding at this point is that it is B, you must spend at least one stone and one crew, and then you get two more then you would have normally got, but no more then 5 total.


cubetap wrote:
Second:
Quote:
- The upgrade field card does *not* apply to the end bonus sphinx cards (ie. a brown card with an upgrade still just counts as a brown card when determining who has the most productive brown fields)


This contradicts your earlier statement from the FAQ:
Quote:
For Sphinx cards regarding having the most productive of a field type, upgrades do change what the field counts as. So if you are trying to get "Most Productive Green Fields" and you have a yellow field with the upgrade on it, that yellow field counts as a green field. (This is based on rules clarification from the Hans im Gluck website.)


It also contradicts a forum post by Brer Bear2, who implemented the Yucata.de online version:
Brer Bear2 wrote:
if you have the sphinx card "You have the most productive green fields" and you upgraded a yellow-green field to a green field it will of course count as a green field during the final scoring.


So, are both the FAQ and the post by Brer Bear2 wrong on this issue?? It seems odd that you would treat a field as green for one purpose and brown for another purpose.


This clarification came from a designer *after* I had published v1.2 of the faq. v1.3 of the faq is still awaiting approval, and clarifies this issue. I'm actually going to update it to 1.4 based on this post and submit it again, and that should be the most up to date (and hopefully correct!) clarification document. phew.

Quote:
Hi Adam,

The final rules were written by Hans im Gluck, then I can only give you my interpretation.

+2 Card: you have to spend at least a stone in the sphinx to activate the effect of this card.

Permanent Upgrade Card: the card changes the ability to produce grain, but does not change the color of the field for the majority: a brown field produced as a yellow, but is brown for the majority.

Sorry for my bad english and for the delay in response, I rarely see BGG...
For the future this is my mail: Virginio@Acchittocca.it.

Ciao

Virginio


This matches what my initial interpretation of the rules was, which you can see earlier in the thread as well. I will update the document.

Quote:
[RANT]


I enjoy the game and had fun teaching it, and think it's a good game, but your rant is valid and I can't really defend the rules. I think that they are good to a point, but don't stand up to scrutiny and require some audibles as you play the game the first few times. I do feel like most of the rulebook is actually pretty good; the way the game flows, the high level concepts of how the game works, etc. Aside from those few areas that it totally drops the ball on, I would even say it's a good rulebook, but then it drops the ball in those areas and becomes very frustrating

I will attempt to answer your further questions as well:


Quote:

Just a few examples:
I still don't know what I'm supposed to do with the "You can place a ship on a full building site" card.


I was going to dedicate more bullets to this on my faq, but I wanted to keep it in at 2 pages (and had to do a lot of font/page manipulation just to pull that off!) But here we go....

There are two cards regarding building sites, the "you may place a boat on a full building site" and the "you build first at all locations you have a boat" card.

1) "You may place a boat on a full building site"
This card allows you to build on a site that is already full. For all intents and purposes, just pretend that there is another open spot at the back of the line and that's where you get to go and build. Another way of thinking of this is that you are allowed to build even though you are just prospecting (which is what happens when you place a boat on a full building spot). So, if 3 players have already placed a boat at the sphinx building location, and you have this card, you may place your boat there as well, in the fourth spot, and you *will* be allowed to build, after the first three players during the build phase.

Regarding timing of this card, initially I thought you would have to play it during the place ships phase, but stricly reading the card, I woudl say you can use the card at any time, as long as there was a full building site for you to play it on. You would build after the players ahead of you have finished building in that zone. In your example of speculating and waiting to see if you need the card or not, you could use it that way, or you could even just not bother speculating, then play the card to put the boat there before that building zone is processed.

2) "You can build first wherever you have a ship"
Your interpretation of this card is correct. You use it once, at the start of the build phase, and move to the start of everywhere you have a ship located, even if that ship was prospecting.

Quote:
Ok, now the "Obelisk bonus." I've seen repeated reference to this in the forums. I thought it was an Obelisk/graves bonus.


You are totally correct on this! This was my misinterpretation and is actually clearly spelled out in the rules (and not mentioned in any errata). I will update my document to fix this mistake!
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Hansi
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Quote:

rhitmojo wrote:
cubetap wrote:
Second:
Quote:
- The upgrade field card does *not* apply to the end bonus sphinx cards (ie. a brown card with an upgrade still just counts as a brown card when determining who has the most productive brown fields)


This contradicts your earlier statement from the FAQ:
Quote:
For Sphinx cards regarding having the most productive of a field type, upgrades do change what the field counts as. So if you are trying to get "Most Productive Green Fields" and you have a yellow field with the upgrade on it, that yellow field counts as a green field. (This is based on rules clarification from the Hans im Gluck website.)


It also contradicts a forum post by Brer Bear2, who implemented the Yucata.de online version:
[q="Brer Bear2"]if you have the sphinx card "You have the most productive green fields" and you upgraded a yellow-green field to a green field it will of course count as a green field during the final scoring.


So, are both the FAQ and the post by Brer Bear2 wrong on this issue?? It seems odd that you would treat a field as green for one purpose and brown for another purpose.


This clarification came from a designer *after* I had published v1.2 of the faq. v1.3 of the faq is still awaiting approval, and clarifies this issue. I'm actually going to update it to 1.4 based on this post and submit it again, and that should be the most up to date (and hopefully correct!) clarification document. phew.

Quote:
Hi Adam,

The final rules were written by Hans im Gluck, then I can only give you my interpretation.

+2 Card: you have to spend at least a stone in the sphinx to activate the effect of this card.

Permanent Upgrade Card: the card changes the ability to produce grain, but does not change the color of the field for the majority: a brown field produced as a yellow, but is brown for the majority.

Sorry for my bad english and for the delay in response, I rarely see BGG...
For the future this is my mail: Virginio@Acchittocca.it.

Ciao

Virginio


This matches what my initial interpretation of the rules was, which you can see earlier in the thread as well. I will update the document.



I doubt that this is the official publisher's interpretation.
On the page with rules clarification they write that the improvement card can be allocated just before the sphinx scoring.

Would this make sense with your interpretation? There is no feeding any more before final scoring but it could help to get points for those "most productive" Sphinx cards.

I see that the designer has another opinion but he also writes the final rules were written by HiG and this is only his interpretation of those rules.

Also the English rules say:
Quote:

The player allocates this card to one of his grain fields and thereby improves its ability to produce by 1 level in all cases for the entire game.

To me this sounds clear...


Quote:

In your example of speculating and waiting to see if you need the card or not, you could use it that way, or you could even just not bother speculating, then play the card to put the boat there before that building zone is processed.

This is wrong. You MUST have placed a boat already on a speculating place.
I sent a mail to the publisher longer time ago because I wasn't sure, too and they told me by using that card the speculative place (where you already have a ship) becomes a definite building place. So you can build after the 3 regular players.

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Brer Bear2 wrote:
I doubt that this is the official publisher's interpretation.
On the page with rules clarification they write that the improvement card can be allocated just before the sphinx scoring.

Would this make sense with your interpretation? There is no feeding any more before final scoring but it could help to get points for those "most productive" Sphinx cards.

I see that the designer has another opinion but he also writes the final rules were written by HiG and this is only his interpretation of those rules.

Also the English rules say:
Quote:

The player allocates this card to one of his grain fields and thereby improves its ability to produce by 1 level in all cases for the entire game.

To me this sounds clear...


To me it's not so clear. It's odd to state that you are changing the cards ability to produce, but not the actual card itself. I agree with you about the rules clarification that it can be allocated immediately prior to final scoring having that implication though. I hadn't yet seen that.

Quote:
Quote:

In your example of speculating and waiting to see if you need the card or not, you could use it that way, or you could even just not bother speculating, then play the card to put the boat there before that building zone is processed.

This is wrong. You MUST have placed a boat already on a speculating place.
I sent a mail to the publisher longer time ago because I wasn't sure, too and they told me by using that card the speculative place (where you already have a ship) becomes a definite building place. So you can build after the 3 regular players.


All I have to go on is the wording on the card, the rules really don't clarify. By the card wording, it would be used to "place a boat on a full building spot" No where does it mention that you have to have the boat there already. In fact, the card actually uses the word "place" on it! I believe you, I'm just explaining where my interpretation came from. That card should have been worded as "you may build when speculating" if that's how they intended it to be used.

Wow, talk about a moving target! Time to update that document *again*
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Whew! I think I may be edging slightly closer to finally playing this game right.

Rio Grande: post the freakin' errata on your website too. Reading rules via Google translate is like having a game explained by Yoda on acid.

rhitmojo wrote:
Brer Bear2 wrote:

Also the English rules say:
Quote:

The player allocates this card to one of his grain fields and thereby improves its ability to produce by 1 level in all cases for the entire game.

To me this sounds clear...


To me it's not so clear. It's odd to state that you are changing the cards ability to produce, but not the actual card itself. I agree with you about the rules clarification that it can be allocated immediately prior to final scoring having that implication though. I hadn't yet seen that.


No, not crystal, but I think this is the most reasonable interpretation, especially since the sphinx card in question says "most productive." This language combined with the "improves its ability to produce" plus "in all cases for the rest of the game" suggests this was the intent. Why else would it say "in all cases?" There are only 2 cases I can think of where field production matters: 1) feeding your people, and 2)to satisfy the "most productive" sphinx requirement.

I'm sold on this one.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

In your example of speculating and waiting to see if you need the card or not, you could use it that way, or you could even just not bother speculating, then play the card to put the boat there before that building zone is processed.

This is wrong. You MUST have placed a boat already on a speculating place.
I sent a mail to the publisher longer time ago because I wasn't sure, too and they told me by using that card the speculative place (where you already have a ship) becomes a definite building place. So you can build after the 3 regular players.


All I have to go on is the wording on the card, the rules really don't clarify. By the card wording, it would be used to "place a boat on a full building spot" No where does it mention that you have to have the boat there already. In fact, the card actually uses the word "place" on it! I believe you, I'm just explaining where my interpretation came from. That card should have been worded as "you may build when speculating" if that's how they intended it to be used.


Yep, the phrase "place a boat" has absolutely no business being on that card. I'm almost tempted to take a sharpie to mine. But really, this is the only explanation I can think of that comes close to making the cryptic description in the rulebook make sense: "Red may build when speculating." But why would you put "you may place" on a card that's only used after a boat has already been placed? Makes me want to pull my hair out.

So I think my original theory above is right.
1) Place a ship on speculation.
2a) If someone on one of the squares can't build, take their spot as normal, and keep your card for later.
2b) If all other players build, you may play this card and build instead of having to withdraw your ship.

OR, do you have to commit to using the card when you place the ship on speculation. I favor the "wait and see" method.

So the only other rule I'm still not 100% on is whether you can use the "anytime" cards during final scoring. The language from the rulebook could be a problem: it says any time cards are used "on your turn." Is final scoring considered "your turn?" Placing a ship during nile phase is surely a turn, and building should be considered your turn. Each player does final scoring in order.

Player #1: "Can I do my final scoring yet?"
Player #2 "No, wait your turn, #1 player! I'm still scoring my sphinx cards."

I'm inclined to allow this. Why? If final scoring isn't your turn, but building is your turn, what's to prevent a player from waiting until round 5 pyramid/temple building, then using the anytime card to fulfill a sphinx requirement. This would circumvent any prohibition from using "any time" cards during final scoring, making such prohibition pretty much meaningless.

I notice that in the yucata rules, you are not allowed to use any time cards during final scoring. Brer Bear2, was this just because it was tricky to program or some other reason? Just curious, because absent a reason this shouldn't be allowed, I'm inclined to say this is legal.
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cubetap wrote:
I notice that in the yucata rules, you are not allowed to use any time cards during final scoring. Brer Bear2, was this just because it was tricky to program or some other reason? Just curious, because absent a reason this shouldn't be allowed, I'm inclined to say this is legal.


Yes. I would also say it's allowed. The reason why it wasn't implemented is because on Yucata.de games are not played in realtime (like on BSW) but turn based. So, games can be played over several days or even weeks. Some phases (and the final scoring) have been automated to accelerate the game a bit.

I also think your interpretation of the "place a ship on a full building site" card is right.
The term "place a ship" is not a strict translation, on the German card "ship" is not mentioned.

I don't know how long it takes to get a rules question answered by RioGrandeGames but I sent some mails to HiG and they replied within some days. An official errata/clarification by RGG would be nice of course.

@rhitmojo: Thanks for all your work on the FAQ, I know it's some work.

Well, I really hope that most of the clarification is done now. I really spent much time on this game and its rules.

But meanwhile I'm implementing another game which has a better rulebook.
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cubetap wrote:
I'm sold on this one.


Yup, I agree, updating the FAQ.

Quote:
I sent a mail to the publisher longer time ago because I wasn't sure, too and they told me by using that card the speculative place (where you already have a ship) becomes a definite building place. So you can build after the 3 regular players.


Ugh, this is annoying. What is the german wording of that card? At this point, it is so against what is worded on the card that I would consider it errata, but I would like to have an official source for the errata before I make that claim.

Quote:
I'm inclined to allow this. Why? If final scoring isn't your turn, but building is your turn, what's to prevent a player from waiting until round 5 pyramid/temple building, then using the anytime card to fulfill a sphinx requirement. This would circumvent any prohibition from using "any time" cards during final scoring, making such prohibition pretty much meaningless.


I had another separate email to the designers about this issue, more specifically if you could wait and use the crew boost any time cards to make them bigger for when you score a sphinx card based on crew size, and they specifically said "no" Here is the response:

Quote:
Quote:
The "anytime" cards that allow you to boost a crew. Is it possible to save these until the end game scoring and use them in conjunction with a sphinx card that scores a crew?

For example: My yellow crew is at 8, and I have the anytime card that lets me boost a crew temporarily by 4. At the end of the game, I still haven't used the anytime card, and I have the sphinx card that gives me one point for every member of my yellow crew. Can I then play the anytime card, increasing the crew from 8 to 12 and then scoring it?


Nooooooooooooo :-))))

This is a diabolical idea!!!

You have to use this card during a construction!!!

Ciao.

Virginio


I know that's kind of a specific question, but I think if you stick with the idea that you play the cards before end game scoring you should be fine. Maybe even a quick "does anyone want to play any cards" right before starting the scoring phase. I could see this coming in to play with the permanent upgrade field cards and being important. Basically, doing it before scoring rather then during scoring is not a meaningless distinction.

For example, if one player has the sphinx card for most productive brown fields *and* most productive yellow fields, I don't think they should be allowed to count all their brown fields for the first sphinx card, then apply the upgrade to one of them and count all the yellow fields for the second sphinx card. Similarly, I shouldn't be able to use a field towards this sphinx bonus, and then upgrade it to try and tank someone else's bonus opportunity for the upgraded field type.
 
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rhitmojo wrote:

I had another separate email to the designers about this issue, more specifically if you could wait and use the crew boost any time cards to make them bigger for when you score a sphinx card based on crew size, and they specifically said "no" Here is the response:

Quote:
Quote:
The "anytime" cards that allow you to boost a crew. Is it possible to save these until the end game scoring and use them in conjunction with a sphinx card that scores a crew?

For example: My yellow crew is at 8, and I have the anytime card that lets me boost a crew temporarily by 4. At the end of the game, I still haven't used the anytime card, and I have the sphinx card that gives me one point for every member of my yellow crew. Can I then play the anytime card, increasing the crew from 8 to 12 and then scoring it?


Nooooooooooooo :-))))

This is a diabolical idea!!!

You have to use this card during a construction!!!

Ciao.

Virginio


I wouldn't have thought you could use this card that way either. You don't ever move a crew to the right, so you're not really increasing a particular crew's strength, you're just adding to your total crew strength for that particular build.

Also, in the instructions it says "which you use."

Quote:
For example, if one player has the sphinx card for most productive brown fields *and* most productive yellow fields, I don't think they should be allowed to count all their brown fields for the first sphinx card, then apply the upgrade to one of them and count all the yellow fields for the second sphinx card.


I would call shenanigans if somebody tried that in a game. Seems kind of like gaming the rules. I agree, before scoring, not during.
These are the cards that I think you should be able to play right before final scoring: 1) permanent upgrade card; 2) anytime take 6 stone; 3) anytime trade up to ten stones for points.
 
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