True Blue Jon
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As always, I welcome any and all discussion from any kind of theist and/or atheist. What wisdom is found in the book of Proverbs?

Which proverbs are your favorites? Which ones make you say, "Wait, what?"

This translation is taken from the Tanach found here:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The...

Mishlei - Proverbs - Chapter 13

1. A wise son [seeks] his father's discipline, but a scorner does not listen to rebuke.

2. From the fruit of a man's mouth he will eat good, but the desire of the treacherous is violence.

3. He who watches his mouth guards his soul; for one who opens his lips wide there is ruin.

4. The soul of the lazy man desires but has nothing, but the soul of the diligent shall be sated.

5. The righteous man hates a false word, but the wicked disgraces and embarrasses.

6. Charity guards him who is steadfast in his way, but wickedness brings ruin upon the sinner.

7. There is one who feigns riches but has nothing; one who feigns poverty but has great wealth.

8. The ransom of a man's soul is his wealth, as long as the poor man has not heard a rebuke.

9. The light of the righteous will rejoice, but the candle of the wicked will ebb away.

10. Only with wickedness does one cause quarrels, but there is wisdom with those who take counsel.

11. Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished, but he who gathers by hand will increase.

12. Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life.

13. He who despises a thing will be pledged to it, but he who reveres a commandment will be rewarded.

14. The instruction of a wise man is a spring of life, to turn away from the snares of death.

15. Good sense will grant favor, but the way of the treacherous is harsh.

16. Every cunning man acts with forethought, but a fool exposes [his] stupidity.

17. A wicked messenger falls into evil, but a faithful emissary brings healing.

18. Poverty and disgrace befall him who spurns discipline, but he who keeps reproof will be honored.

19. A desire fulfilled pleases the soul, but the abomination of the fools is to turn away from evil.

20. He who goes with the wise will become wise, but he who befriends the fools will be broken.

21. Evil will pursue the sinners but the righteous He will pay a good [reward].

22. A good man will leave an inheritance for his sons' sons, but the wealth of a sinner is laid away for the righteous.

23. An abundance of food is the result of the plowing of the poor, and some perish because of lack of propriety.

24. He who holds back his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him early.

25. A righteous man eats to sate his appetite, but the stomach of the wicked shall feel want.
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Daniel Eig
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Just me, or do the proverbs get better as you roll along the chapters? Maybe Solomon was just getting warmed up in the beginning (or purposely throwing out clunkers to scare off the idiots).

1 - always good to get advice, even if its on your failings...
3 - is a familiar refrain. Loose lips sinks ships
4 - as a lazy man, I will add that ratcheting down your desires to the bare bones is a good solution to this problem.

7 - I like it.
12 - Liking this too. Liking a lot of proverbs this chapter...

24 - I've always agreed with this in the general sense (disciple/boundaries good), but disagreed in the specifics ("how dare you hit other children Billy - WACK - let me hit you with this stick to teach you not to hit others"). Children imitate what they see. I don't want my daughter imitating me hitting her, striking her, or what have you. Is it nicer to use emotional pain (shunning, naughty corner, etc) to replace physical pain? I dunno. But I'd rather have her imitate by turning her back on someone being a jerk, than get into some fist-a-cuffs.

But thats just me.

I know some parents who have... almost no discipline - except for maybe when the kids irritate the parents. Then its random insults and yelling. Otherwise kids get to do what they want. The kids scare me. Its like they have ADHD applied from without - they've never even been exposed to the concept of buckling down and doing something.

Maybe they're happier in the short term, but in my experience its the people with the best work ethic who do best in life (though are they happier than me? I honestly don't know. They look happy).

I'd impart that to my kids if I could... but like I said...I'm lazy. I have no work ethic to pass along. Best I can do is to pass along how to lower your desires. Hopefully someone at school can teach 'em the work ethic part.
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David Aubert
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quozl wrote:

3. He who watches his mouth guards his soul; for one who opens his lips wide there is ruin.


A nice way to say "Shut thy effing mouth".
Intelligence is alsways the ennemy of religion. Ashaming people who asks question is a good way to prevent the intelligence of spreading.

quozl wrote:

4. The soul of the lazy man desires but has nothing, but the soul of the diligent shall be sated.


OK, the soul of the 'lazy' man got nothing, but the 'lazy' man got money and chicks.

quozl wrote:

7. There is one who feigns riches but has nothing; one who feigns poverty but has great wealth.


And ? There is thousands of people out there. Why bother those two ?

quozl wrote:

9. The light of the righteous will rejoice, but the candle of the wicked will ebb away.

Electricity didn't exist at that time, so keep in mind that the candle of the righteous will ebb away too.
Now I prefer to rejoice myself as a wicked free man than watching some candle habing fun.

quozl wrote:

11. Wealth gotten by vanity shall be diminished, but he who gathers by hand will increase.

Wrong, take a look at DRM and copyright. Wealth gotten by vanity is much more protected and increase way more than wealth gained by labormen.

quozl wrote:

17. A wicked messenger falls into evil, but a faithful emissary brings healing.

Really ... I though at least the message carried by the messenger or emmissary would have some importance. Clearly I was wrong, it also explain why people in movie keep killing messenger who brings bad news ... it's not the news that bad, it's the messenger ...


quozl wrote:

19. A desire fulfilled pleases the soul, but the abomination of the fools is to turn away from evil.

... Seriously ... turning away from evil is foolish ...
Did you took those cliché from a satanic bible ?????

quozl wrote:

20. He who goes with the wise will become wise, but he who befriends the fools will be broken.

Yup but according to 19, he who goes with the wise will turn evil.
Forgive me but I prefer being a free fool and an evil slave.


quozl wrote:
23. An abundance of food is the result of the plowing of the poor, and some perish because of lack of propriety.


OK, it's the Satanist Communist Bible

quozl wrote:

24. He who holds back his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him early.

So, he who spend time to explain with word only his son why some thing should be done and why others shouldn't hates his son.
And he who whip his son if this goddamit schmuck has to be told four times to "bring Daddy's Beer In The Fridge to Daddy" loves his son.
Am I the one to see a problem here ?

quozl wrote:

25. A righteous man eats to sate his appetite, but the stomach of the wicked shall feel want.


Does that mean that fatties are wicked ?


quozl wrote:
What wisdom is found in the book of Proverbs?

None. But at least we can have a good laugh reading them.

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True Blue Jon
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Hankroyd wrote:
Intelligence is alsways the ennemy of religion.


Looks like religion is safe from you then.
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David Aubert
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Yup !

By the way, thanks for thumbing me up. It's good to see you agreed with me about how much a satanic communist moron was the writer.
I'm glad to see we are both equally intelligent.
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Paul DeStefano
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Hankroyd wrote:

quozl wrote:

25. A righteous man eats to sate his appetite, but the stomach of the wicked shall feel want.


Does that mean that fatties are wicked ?


No joke, but... yes.

Go back to when this was written. An arid place. Difficult to cultivate. Hard land. Commerce was small. Tools almost unusable.

Very few people had anything in abundance, except perhaps lice. Small crops and meager herds lead to very little food. Fish was plentiful, if you lived near the water.

Fish does not a fat man make.

Christianity had always been introduced as hope for the downtrodden. A religion for the poor. In promoting brotherhood with one's peers, there had to be a palpable opponent to join hands against.

The rich. Those that could afford vast plates of lamb. Those who collected or stole taxes. Those who did not extend help to the beggar, but instead increased the size of their own feast. They did not toil in the field. They did not have to. They were not blacksmiths or potters. They were the rising aristocracy, who made their money by signing papers and increasing tolls. They took what they wanted by force. If you had but two sheep, well, certainly you needed to share with the armed guards that patrol your land, and it would be an insult to only give part of a sheep in tribute, half of your stock was taken.

This lead the taskmasters, the thugs and the corrupt law to get fat.

What you see as a bit of a joke was actually the true point the proverb is trying to get across: If you have more than enough to feed yourself, do not continue to eat, but give to those who do not have.
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True Blue Jon
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Geosphere wrote:
What you see as a bit of a joke was actually the true point the proverb is trying to get across: If you have more than enough to feed yourself, do not continue to eat, but give to those who do not have.


Exactly (except this was long before Christianity).
 
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Jimmy Smith
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dtolman wrote:
24 - I've always agreed with this in the general sense (disciple/boundaries good), but disagreed in the specifics ("how dare you hit other children Billy - WACK - let me hit you with this stick to teach you not to hit others"). Children imitate what they see. I don't want my daughter imitating me hitting her, striking her, or what have you. Is it nicer to use emotional pain (shunning, naughty corner, etc) to replace physical pain? I dunno. But I'd rather have her imitate by turning her back on someone being a jerk, than get into some fist-a-cuffs.

But thats just me.

The key is in how you go about it. If your child hits someone, the proper reaction is not to burst into a spit of anger and slap your child for what they've done. You should take them aside and calmly explain why what they did was wrong and what the punishment is. A good ole spanking (which can be done in a nonviolent manner) will do wonders for a child. It won't turn your child into a violent physical abuser.
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David Aubert
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Geosphere wrote:
Hankroyd wrote:

quozl wrote:

25. A righteous man eats to sate his appetite, but the stomach of the wicked shall feel want.


Does that mean that fatties are wicked ?


No joke, but... yes.

Go back to when this was written. (...)

What you see as a bit of a joke was actually the true point the proverb is trying to get across: If you have more than enough to feed yourself, do not continue to eat, but give to those who do not have.


Going back when this was written ?
The Bible is supposed to be True in all time period, no ?
And even then, even at this time, people with metabolic problem and mental problem such as compulsive eating disorders existed.

What I meant is that nothing evolved during those millenia :
Big fat are bastard and are shunned
Anorexics with visible bones under their skin are OK and are ven encouraged to become thinner.

I don't see this as a joke. I see that as a shame.
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True Blue Jon
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Perhaps it's a language issue.

The verse is saying good people don't eat more than they should but bad people are gluttons.

Do you think gluttony should be supported?
 
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quozl wrote:
Perhaps it's a language issue.

The verse is saying good people don't eat more than they should but bad people are gluttons.

Do you think gluttony should be supported?


Nope.
But again 'thin glutton' would be able to go away with this, because nothing can prove they eat more than their part.

And assimilating gluttonery to 'evilness' and/or 'being selfish'.

As I said, some people can have compulsive eating disorders. It's not a sin, it's an illness.
That doesn't make them more (or less) evil and unworthy than someone without the problem.

More than a language issue, it's a meaning issue.
For me saying this it's kinda saying : "People in good health are worthy. People with genetic problem, mental problem or illness got them because they are unworthy."
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Hankroyd wrote:
quozl wrote:
Perhaps it's a language issue.

The verse is saying good people don't eat more than they should but bad people are gluttons.

Do you think gluttony should be supported?


Nope.
But again 'thin glutton' would be able to go away with this, because nothing can prove they eat more than their part.

And assimilating gluttonery to 'evilness' and/or 'being selfish'.

As I said, some people can have compulsive eating disorders. It's not a sin, it's an illness.
That doesn't make them more (or less) evil and unworthy than someone without the problem.

More than a language issue, it's a meaning issue.
For me saying this it's kinda saying : "People in good health are worthy. People with genetic problem, mental problem or illness got them because they are unworthy."


I see what you are getting at, but you are being too literal. These proverbs are lessons for people who have a choice. If you choose to consume more than you need, you are unethical. People with disorders don't have a choice, they are built to over consume. You can't be wrong, if you don't have a choice.
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Hankroyd wrote:

Nope.
But again 'thin glutton' would be able to go away with this, because nothing can prove they eat more than their part.


Also, it doesn't matter if your appearance shows you to be a voluntary glutton or not. In your relationship with your god, he/she/it and yourself know and that's the only two entities that count. I don't think the intent of these proverbs were to provide a list for people to judge each other (though we all know people do use them that way), but were intended as list of guidelines to model your own behavior to. What other mortal humans think of your actions is immaterial, except as a pious example when done correctly. Though even there you can't go around advertising how well you adhere to the proverbs as that is pride and vanity. Actions speak for themselves to those who listen correctly.
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