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Subject: Chinese for 'Khan' is incorrect rss

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午餐先生
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I tried emailing the company, but I'll post it here in case someone involved might see it.

The Chinese for Khan should be 可汗 (kèhán). As it is printed on the game and cards, it's read 汗可 (hànkě) which is incorrect.

I realize it may be too late to change at this point but that is a pretty big difference.
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Kris J
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The convention of reading from left to right wasn't around when the Khans were . . .
 
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Henk Rolleman
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I think the publisher will take a note from you information but I'm not sure if it already printed.
 
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Chakroun Karim
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Rompcat wrote:
The convention of reading from left to right wasn't around when the Khans were . . .


the text is vertical on the box...
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Trab
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See: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/796716/khan?size=medium
 
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Bartjes wrote:


I do not think that Chinese was ever read bottom to top, even in ancient times. Definitely not by the time the Khans were around. Right to left, yes. Top to bottom, yes, but not the other way (and this is after grad school classes in Chinese for both poetry and prose, so I'm not just making this up).

Modern readers would certainly read it top to bottom and would see the intent, but it comes off muddled.

It doesn't offend, it just doesn't mean/ sound like "Khan" anymore (it could mean "able to make you sweaty") so it would provoke consternation or laughter or both.
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mister lunch wrote:

It doesn't offend, it just doesn't mean/ sound like "Khan" anymore (it could mean "able to make you sweaty")


The suspense of playing this game will definitely make you sweaty
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Dave Dubin
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mister lunch wrote:
It doesn't offend, it just doesn't mean/ sound like "Khan" anymore (it could mean "able to make you sweaty") so it would provoke consternation or laughter or both.


Maybe it was rethemed from an earlier perspiration mopping game called "Hanky," and hànkě was the closest phonetic equivalent.

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Kris J
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Wow. That's really stupid. They managed to fuck it up in the ONLY way for which they couldn't make an excuse. Hadn't seen the photo before . . .

Has our "graduate level" reader read the Secret History of the Mongols? What was the translation of Khan that they were using?

I'm no PhD in Chinese, but I do speak it for work every day. I'll ask the laobaixing how they would describe a "Mongol King" and get back to y'all tonight. . . Unless we have some native speakers in the room?

Though it makes me much less likely to get the game, it'd really be the Chinese-speaking population that would be put off by the blunder because you know it's not going to be all the Westerners with their "Double Fish Seat," "right," and mirror image tattoos.

At least they didn't print mirror image characters! Or upside down ones! A Chinese printer has some utility!

 
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James Boardgame
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Why use chinese characters at all? Surely it would have been better to usethe Uighur script, as used by the Mongols?

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Krzysztof Budny
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And don't forget Russia that wasn't called Rasiia yet. :shake:
 
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Rompcat wrote:

Has our "graduate level" reader read the Secret History of the Mongols? What was the translation of Khan that they were using?


I have no idea what that has to do with anything... I'm just talking about the Chinese, since I don't speak Mongolian and Chinese is what I know.

可汗 (Kèhán)is how it should be transliterated in Chinese. It has been in use for centuries. The laobaixing would tell you the same and smirk at the mistake, probably much as 'Engrish' mistakes make English speakers smirk.

 
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Lajos
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mister lunch wrote:
I do not think that Chinese was ever read bottom to top, even in ancient times. Definitely not by the time the Khans were around. Right to left, yes. Top to bottom, yes, but not the other way

Indeed.

mister lunch wrote:
it could mean "able to make you sweaty"

That's what I initially read as well.

What worries me more than this silly mistake, however, is the use of Chinese characters (and quite modern versions thereof) for a game about the Mongol empire. The Mongols did not use Chinese characters. They used an Uyghur-derived script and a script designed by the Tibetan monk 'Phags-pa (on demand from the Khan). Only after the conquest of China and the establishment of the Yuan dynasty (and the consequent sinification) did the eastern part of the Mongolian empire (internally) use Chinese characters.
In other words, the use of Chinese characters is not just wrong (and the spelling of the word 'khan' is not the only example), it is also highly inappropriate.
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Lajos
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Rompcat wrote:
Has our "graduate level" reader read the Secret History of the Mongols? What was the translation of Khan that they were using?

[中+合]罕
Note that the first character was a composite of 中 and 合. That composite is not available in modern Chinese fonts. And secondly, the form of 罕 (the second character) was also a bit different at that time.
(Chingiz Khan was transcribed as: 成吉思[中+合]罕.)
It should be noted, however, that this writing is a 14th century Chinese transcription (and translation) of a 13th century pre-classical Mongolian text. Hence, this transcription is as inappropriate as the upside down modern Chinese transcription on the box.

Rompcat wrote:
I'll ask the laobaixing how they would describe a "Mongol King" and get back to y'all tonight. . .

It would still be irrelevant. (1) Modern (Mandarin/Cantonese/?) Chinese is not the same as the (which?) Chinese of that period. (2) The Mongolians spoke nor wrote Chinese. Their language isn't even remotely related.

Rompcat wrote:
Though it makes me much less likely to get the game, ...

The stupid errors make it very unlikely that I'll buy it. Which is a pity, because I'm very much interested in Mongolian (and other East-Asian) history and would normally buy it without thinking twice.

Rompcat wrote:
it'd really be the Chinese-speaking population that would be put off by the blunder

I think the Chinese-speaking population should be pretty much irrelevant in this case, but the (small) Mongolian population has all the reason to be outraged. I think that many of them would consider the usage of Chinese characters in this game/context quite offensive. (And I think they would be very much puzzled by the equally inappropriate yin-yang symbols on the board.)
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午餐先生
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Lajos wrote:

What worries me more than this silly mistake, however, is the use of Chinese characters (and quite modern versions thereof) for a game about the Mongol empire. The Mongols did not use Chinese characters. They used an Uyghur-derived script and a script designed by the Tibetan monk 'Phags-pa (on demand from the Khan). Only after the conquest of China and the establishment of the Yuan dynasty (and the consequent sinification) did the eastern part of the Mongolian empire (internally) use Chinese characters.
In other words, the use of Chinese characters is not just wrong (and the spelling of the word 'khan' is not the only example), it is also highly inappropriate.


In their defense, it does take place before all of China fell to the Mongols (there is the character 宋 Sōng, on the banner at the top, which is the dynasty they toppled).

However, I agree Chinese comes across as the default Mongolian script, which is odd since Chinese people were at the bottom of the social ladder in the Mongolian empire due to their resistance to assimilation!
 
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Lajos
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mister lunch wrote:
In their defense, it does take place before all of China fell to the Mongols

That's not a defense at all. For that period the usage of Chinese characters is even more inappropriate.

mister lunch wrote:
(there is the character 宋 Sōng, on the banner at the top, which is the dynasty they toppled).

Did you notice on what card that character appears?


Ouch...
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午餐先生
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Lajos wrote:
Rompcat wrote:
Has our "graduate level" reader read the Secret History of the Mongols? What was the translation of Khan that they were using?

[中+合]罕
Note that the first character was a composite of 中 and 合. That composite is not available in modern Chinese fonts. And secondly, the form of 罕 (the second character) was also a bit different at that time.
(Chingiz Khan was transcribed as: 成吉思[中+合]罕.)
It should be noted, however, that this writing is a 14th century Chinese transcription (and translation) of a 13th century pre-classical Mongolian text. Hence, this transcription is as inappropriate as the upside down modern Chinese transcription on the box.


You had way more patience than me to go into all that! I gave up trying to come up with some kind of explanation when I saw a superscript 中, which I imagine was an indicator of some entering tone or consonant to be said in the pronunciation now lost to time instead of a combination character. The PDF I found has many of those superscripts. It would be interesting to see how those are perceived to have dictated pronunciation for the Chinese reader.
 
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午餐先生
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Lajos wrote:
mister lunch wrote:
In their defense, it does take place before all of China fell to the Mongols

That's not a defense at all. For that period the usage of Chinese characters is even more inappropriate.

mister lunch wrote:
(there is the character 宋 Sōng, on the banner at the top, which is the dynasty they toppled).

Did you notice on what card that character appears?


Ouch...

Whoa, no. You're right, no defense!
I saw the helmet and the banner, didn't even see the text.shake

Total misrepresentation.
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Kris J
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Well, the laobaixing in the main did not know what a Mongol king was called, and those that did seemed to call it a Ke4Han3 rather than Ke4Han2. Taiwanese folks seemed to have less trouble than the mainlanders, but a significant number just said they didn't know their lishi.

This conversation just is so much egg of the publisher's face. Especially with the Song card.

Let's just make a WWII game and put Free French trooops on an SS card. Whatever if people complain. It's okay to be insensitive it you're ignorant, right?

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Filipe Cunha
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I wish the designer, the artist and the publisher did like they did with Cyclades and review all the text/fonts and cultural references...
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Tom
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Maybe this should be a hint to publishers...publish in the language you know and understand...or have someone who knows what they are talking about design the graphics...or at least dump it on the geek to get torn apart so that these kind of errors are not made.

However, in defense, with such small budgets, probably the third choice is the best and most affordable. This reminds me of the stories of promoting the Chevy Nova in Central and South America...or the Chevy "no go".
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Tom
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mister lunch wrote:
Bartjes wrote:


I do not think that Chinese was ever read bottom to top, even in ancient times. Definitely not by the time the Khans were around. Right to left, yes. Top to bottom, yes, but not the other way (and this is after grad school classes in Chinese for both poetry and prose, so I'm not just making this up).

Modern readers would certainly read it top to bottom and would see the intent, but it comes off muddled.

It doesn't offend, it just doesn't mean/ sound like "Khan" anymore (it could mean "able to make you sweaty") so it would provoke consternation or laughter or both.


Now that I think about it, I bet when Khan was ready to invade a territory/province/city people probably got pretty nervous which might have made them sweaty?
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Colin Jennings
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If I was doing an Open University course on the ancient Mongol language and there was a mistake I might get worried....but this is a game....jez....just let's play.
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The Mongols generally (still) hate the Chinese, so the usage of Chinese text on the box could be considered inappropriate.

By the way, in Mongolia Genghis Khan is called Chinggis Khan (silent "k" in Khan). You'll find his face mostly on money and vodka bottles.
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Flames of Azure wrote:
The Mongols generally (still) hate the Chinese, so the usage of Chinese text on the box could be considered inappropriate.

They say that they asked a 'Chinese friend'. Apparently they don't have any Mongolian friends, and I'm pretty sure that they won't be making any with this game.
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