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Subject: LOL Hawking pwns God: can i haz strings? im in ur bases makin ur universe! rss

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Marshall P.
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/02/hawking.god.unive...

God did not create the universe, world-famous physicist Stephen Hawking argues in a new book that aims to banish a divine creator from physics.

Hawking says in his book "The Grand Design" that, given the existence of gravity, "the universe can and will create itself from nothing," according to an excerpt published Thursday in The Times of London.

"Spontaneous creation is the reason why there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," he writes in the excerpt.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper [fuse] and set the universe going," he writes.

His answer is "M-theory," which, he says, posits 11 space-time dimensions, "vibrating strings, ... point particles, two-dimensional membranes, three-dimensional blobs and other objects that are more difficult to picture and occupy even more dimensions of space." He doesn't explain much of that in the excerpt, which is the introduction to the book."

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Why would the physical mechanism of generating the universe out of nothing make any difference whether or not G-d created the universe? Hawking of all people should know better.
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bjlillo wrote:
"given the existence of gravity"

Who created gravity?


Nobody?
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Marshall P.
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whac3 wrote:
Why would the physical mechanism of generating the universe out of nothing make any difference whether or not G-d created the universe? Hawking of all people should know better.


Not having read the book (obviously), I'm guessing that his actual argument is that God is not a necessary condition to the creation of the Universe.
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mdp4828 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Why would the physical mechanism of generating the universe out of nothing make any difference whether or not G-d created the universe? Hawking of all people should know better.


Not having read the book (obviously), I'm guessing that his actual argument is that God is not a necessary condition to the creation of the Universe.

I agree.
G-d is not a mere explanation for the existence of the universe.
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bjlillo wrote:
So basically what you're saying is that "Gravity" replaces the concept of "God" in Hawkins' spontaneous creation story. It's existed from eternity and created all that is in the universe.


Whoa, man! That's heavy.
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This is an interesting conversation. I smell a book burning! Break out the marshmallows kids!

Sorry, I couldn't resist. No insult intended to any of our fellow BGG'ers who are particularly devout. All in good fun, we are all entitled to our opinions, even Mr. H.

~Jeff.
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bjlillo wrote:
So basically what you're saying is that "Gravity" replaces the concept of "God" in Hawkins' spontaneous creation story. It's existed from eternity and created all that is in the universe.


This phrase implies that
1) Gravity can exist independently from the universe.
2) There is a time before and presumably after the universe.
3) There is a causal order: gravity is first, it causes the universe.

Neither of the three, I'd say, fit the physics behind Hawking's book. I'd say that 1 and 2 are, in fact, logically impossible.

Compare with a conventional idea of god, in which case 1, 2 and 3 are not only possible but often considered inherent properties.
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Marshall P.
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bjlillo wrote:
mdp4828 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
"given the existence of gravity"

Who created gravity?


Nobody?


So basically what you're saying is that "Gravity" replaces the concept of "God" in Hawkins' spontaneous creation story. It's existed from eternity and created all that is in the universe.


Not exactly. However, it's probably beyond me and beyond this forum to go into exactly what Hawking means by that statement. I certainly wouldn't do it before I read the book.

I would just note, though, that if we have to assume something is eternal, we might as well assume it's something we can actually observe here and now.


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bjlillo wrote:
"given the existence of gravity"

Who created gravity?


This is, of course, the ultimate conundrum.

Why does gravity need to be created? Why is it not spontaneous? And, of course, if the universe and it's contents are too magical/complex to exist without a divine creator, how did that creator come to exist?

As far as Hawkings goes, I would simply say that, if god exists as the all poweful all knowing creator, then he is quite capable of masking his presence to scientific inquiry until he chooses otherwise.

I am not a believer but, science is mor usefule to increase our own understanding of the processes of nature which will hopefully temper any dogmatic tendancies toward nihilism and the mistreatment of others.
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HeinzGuderian wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
So basically what you're saying is that "Gravity" replaces the concept of "God" in Hawkins' spontaneous creation story. It's existed from eternity and created all that is in the universe.


This phrase implies that
1) Gravity can exist independently from the universe.
2) There is a time before and presumably after the universe.
3) There is a causal order: gravity is first, it causes the universe.

Neither of the three, I'd say, fit the physics behind Hawking's book. I'd say that 1 and 2 are, in fact, logically impossible.

Compare with a conventional idea of god, in which case 1, 2 and 3 are not only possible but often considered inherent properties.


Lies, lies, lies ... You'll go to hell ...

1 is perfectly possible : simple example : No universe, two particules = 4 interactions (one of them is gravity)
2 Why it's impossible to have something before or after ? On the contrary it seems fairly logical : Universe A expand then die and universe B expand and die and Universe C ... I don't see anything contradicting this.
3 there is no casual order : gravity and friends are always here. Universe appears and diseappears.

If God exist.
1) No gravity but God's will.
2) God is eternal, so no 'before god' or 'after god'. One universe, one earth, one god.
3) Gravity isn't first, god is first then everyhting happens in seven days ...


So sorry, in a sad world where He exist, 1,2 & 3 are impossible.
 
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You are assuming that time is a concept that has a meaning outside the universe. Is there such thing as time when there's no space? Why would that be the case? There's no evidence to that fact, so such a belief is just a matter of faith.
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hibikir wrote:
You are assuming that time is a concept that has a meaning outside the universe. Is there such thing as time when there's no space? Why would that be the case? There's no evidence to that fact, so such a belief is just a matter of faith.

Space and time cannot exist without each other and mass-energy is in that mix too.
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Can gravity exist if there is, literally, nothing else? Isn't that inconsistent with general relativity?

Note: I am not a physicist, just an idiot who recently read a decent biography of Einstein.
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mistermarino wrote:
Can gravity exist if there is, literally, nothing else? Isn't that inconsistent with general relativity?

Note: I am not a physicist, just an idiot who recently read a decent biography of Einstein.


Since gravity depends on mass (as far as my limited education has taught me), I really doubt it.
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mistermarino wrote:
Can gravity exist if there is, literally, nothing else? Isn't that inconsistent with general relativity?

Note: I am not a physicist, just an idiot who recently read a decent biography of Einstein.

"Gravity" is what we call the manifestation physically of an intrinsic link between spacetime and mass-energy. Gravity is intrinsically linkedto the universe and yet also governs its development. So saying gravity exists apart from or "before" the universe makes no sense. To say gravity created the universe also makes no sense. Gravity is a description of the universe.

Physically one can get from nothing (literally) to the universe. The process is still on-going which is how cosmic expansion works in the sense that space is literally being created out of nothing all the time. Big bang was simply the first instance of this phenomenon.
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In my time as a particle physicist, I think I have more faith in a Creator than I do in M-theory.

Of course, that's partially because M-theory is something that endeavors to be proven and I'm not convinced we'll ever get there. I can not say the same for a Creator (I.E. It's not something one should try to "prove").

That tongue-in-cheek aside. I do agree with Moshe that Hawkin should really know better than to insist any physical model of the universe can somehow banish a "Creator concept".

Anyways, color me curious about the book though.
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Koldfoot wrote:
What I find interesting, in a purely layman's way, is that Hawkings is now on board with the 11 dimensions model. There are some interesting hypothoses that the missing matter of the universe is not answered by the so called "dark matter" or "dark energy" theories, but rather is an artifact of dimensions that we do not yet comprehend interacting with the known universe in ways we have not yet understand.

Hawking was one of the creators of string theory as we know it.
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Hankroyd wrote:
HeinzGuderian wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
So basically what you're saying is that "Gravity" replaces the concept of "God" in Hawkins' spontaneous creation story. It's existed from eternity and created all that is in the universe.


This phrase implies that
1) Gravity can exist independently from the universe.
2) There is a time before and presumably after the universe.
3) There is a causal order: gravity is first, it causes the universe.

Neither of the three, I'd say, fit the physics behind Hawking's book. I'd say that 1 and 2 are, in fact, logically impossible.

Compare with a conventional idea of god, in which case 1, 2 and 3 are not only possible but often considered inherent properties.


Lies, lies, lies ... You'll go to hell ...

1 is perfectly possible : simple example : No universe, two particules = 4 interactions (one of them is gravity)
2 Why it's impossible to have something before or after ? On the contrary it seems fairly logical : Universe A expand then die and universe B expand and die and Universe C ... I don't see anything contradicting this.
3 there is no casual order : gravity and friends are always here. Universe appears and diseappears.

If God exist.
1) No gravity but God's will.
2) God is eternal, so no 'before god' or 'after god'. One universe, one earth, one god.
3) Gravity isn't first, god is first then everyhting happens in seven days ...


So sorry, in a sad world where He exist, 1,2 & 3 are impossible.


Your first point doesn't make much sense. How are you defining those particles with out any spatial dimensions (i.e a universe)? If you dreamt up some way to do it, I'd posit, that said particles don't feel a gravitational interaction since space-time is rather essential for our current ideas of gravity.
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Koldfoot wrote:
What I find interesting, in a purely layman's way, is that Hawkings is now on board with the 11 dimensions model. There are some interesting hypothoses that the missing matter of the universe is not answered by the so called "dark matter" or "dark energy" theories, but rather is an artifact of dimensions that we do not yet comprehend interacting with the known universe in ways we have not yet understand.


I'd also be curious about some of these other models you've mentioned. While I'm not convinced anyone has a strongly believable idea for Dark Energy, dark Matter is a different beast.

There is to my knowledge, no decent model* that satisfies the myriad of "dark matter" observations besides a WIMP model. Granted, I know I certainly haven't heard all the good theories on the matter.

* Incidentally, I tend not to include string type theories in my idea as a decent model since they seem to be rarely evolved enough to actually say whether they produce the effects we see. laugh
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Koldfoot wrote:
What I find interesting, in a purely layman's way, is that Hawkings is now on board with the 11 dimensions model. There are some interesting hypothoses that the missing matter of the universe is not answered by the so called "dark matter" or "dark energy" theories, but rather is an artifact of dimensions that we do not yet comprehend interacting with the known universe in ways we have not yet understand.
oooooooh - possibility of >4D predictions of m-theory being tested - the "we've reached the end of the road as far as physics goes" kids will be shaking in their boots now!
 
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Am I the only one here that can't help but read his quotes in his computer-generated voice?

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Octavian wrote:
Am I the only one here that can't help but read his quotes in his computer-generated voice?



Nope.
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serdudds wrote:

That tongue-in-cheek aside. I do agree with Moshe that Hawkin should really know better than to insist any physical model of the universe can somehow banish a "Creator concept".


Well, I suspect (although I'll wait for the book to come out) that he isn't actually arguing that a Creator is "banished". I bet he's going to argue that a Creator isn't necessary. That's a pretty big difference.
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mdp4828 wrote:
serdudds wrote:

That tongue-in-cheek aside. I do agree with Moshe that Hawkin should really know better than to insist any physical model of the universe can somehow banish a "Creator concept".


Well, I suspect (although I'll wait for the book to come out) that he isn't actually arguing that a Creator is "banished". I bet he's going to argue that a Creator isn't necessary. That's a pretty big difference.


If that is his argument, it doesn't seem very groundbreaking or newsworthy.

Seriously, do those of faith really argue that it is "necessary"? If so, why?
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