Bill Robot
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OMFG what does within one tile mean??

Seriously this game isn't rocket science to understand. In fact I would say simplicity is one if its greatest strengths.

I am starting to get the feeling people are just spamming idiotic rules questions in an attempt to join some kind of moron band wagon.

This is a light intuitive co-op game. If you wanted something pseudo-tactical go play one of Wizards many pieces of garbage they call 'Miniature games'.

This game does exactly what it promises - a dungeon crawl in an hour. Yes they had to strip the game down but that's called editing and I think they did a great job. I can understand that people (especially DnD people) like tons of inane rules to argue about but that's not for everyone. This game takes the essence of the age old idea of a dungeon crawl and boils it down to only what you need.

For example the move/range one tile thing, as much as it seems to bamboozle so many people, is excellent design. Having played lots of Descent I can tell you tons of time is wasted counting monster movement and range. This game cuts both of these at a very minimal lose.

Or the way each player controls a certain set of monsters/traps. By cutting the usual monster phase you save the game from lagging in his phase and also force each player to be familiar with the whole turn not just their heroes.

Or the way each adventure has a very limited preset number of extras. Again people seem confused with 'OMFG WHAT ARE ALL THESE TOKENS FOR' when really if we geeks weren't so anal about needing to know the use to every token and just played the adventures as they are f*$#ing listed it wonldn't be a problem. In fact this is a good way to write rules. You only need to know what is relevant to each adventure as they come so your not bogged down in the minutiae.

Overall this game might not be a 'great' example of a dungeon crawl. I have yet to play it beyond the two solo adventures so I'm not sure yet. But what it is is simple design. I am sure I can teach this game in less then five minutes and that to me a major plus.
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I'd rather read another twenty "moronic" questions from folks than one more mean-spirited, petty screed like this.
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Tor Sverre Lund
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Holmes! wrote:
I'd rather read another twenty "moronic" questions from folks than one more mean-spirited, petty screed like this.
You want some cheese with that whine?
 
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Most people who post game questions aren't trying to debate the design choices or annoy anyone. They simply aren't sure how to do something correctly, and hope they can get answers from people with a better understanding of the rules.
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Wizards discontinued D&D Minis quite some time ago.

They took over Heroscape from Hasbro, but that's a good game, and was never theirs in the first place.

Might want to get your facts straight before you bitch about people not having their facts straight.
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Let me be clear. I ask plenty of questions on the geek. It is an awesome place to get help with questions. But it seems to me people are trying to find little problems with this games rules and posting random questions to end to bandwagon. There has been loads of traffic for this game on its first weekend a lot if it has been negative. The impression someone might get is of a rule book along the lines of Thunderstone which it is not.
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Eric Newland
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It means your tile or one tile away from you.
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Neil Sorenson
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What's a "tile"?
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Tor Sverre Lund
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What's "one"?
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WOTC has the best customer service. I recently purchased this game, but when I got it home I couldn't find the instructions on getting rid of the shrink wrap and opening the box. Luckily for me, they are very helpful, and after only 3 hours, I was ready to roll.

I did have to call them back again quickly as my players were placed on the start tile and I could not figure how to get to the next tile to explore. Is that mystical darkness surrounding the start tile, maybe where they gypsies live? So the kind customer service rep walked me through punching the tiles out of their sheet.

However now I find my kobold skirmisher is not working. we played through our heroes turn, got past the exploration phase, and now I think the game is jammed or something. That thing is just sitting there on the tile NOT moving 1 tile closer to the nearest hero.

I didn't see anywhere in the rules that batteries are need.?.? Maybe this was left out, I will post another thread asking which size batteries are needed and how to get the miniatures apart to install them.
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The level of animosity y'all're registering to folks who seem, to me at least, to have legitimate and well-intended questions is unfathomable. Every rules question that I've seen is either value-neutral, or is prefaced with, "I really enjoy this game, but..." Bryan's post laid the vitriol for what he saw as poor rules on a li'l thick, but even he was quick to say that he really enjoys the game. Even the most starkly critical voice in these forums has said that he intends to buy the next set, so imputing anti-WotC motives to these folks is a stretch, at best.

It's true that folks' BGG-fu isn't always very good; there are questions they've got that have been addressed several times in multiple threads. But that's the nature of the forums: not everyone is going to be able to mine for the information they need with the same efficacy. To call these folks idiots and morons and accuse them of deliberate stupidity isn't helpful, isn't fun, and isn't friendly, and those three traits are what make the BGG boards so damn amazing in general.
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Gawain wrote:
What's "one"?


It's the number of fingers I'm holding up. laugh

Sorry, couldn't resist. I think, right now, CR has *much* more than the usual number of new players for a boardgame. *No* dungeoncrawl uses its movement system, and this may be the first miniatures combat system many BGG'ers (ie. OCD gamers) have played, so I'm not too surprised at the number of questions.

Really, if you don't like the rules questions, don't read 'em. Go learn how to paint miniatures so you can sell 'em to other BGG'ers or something.
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Tor Sverre Lund
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Sam and Max wrote:
Gawain wrote:
What's "one"?


It's the number of fingers I'm holding up. laugh

thumbsup
laugh
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Holmes! wrote:
The level of animosity y'all're registering to folks who seem, to me at least, to have legitimate and well-intended questions is unfathomable. Every rules question that I've seen is either value-neutral, or is prefaced with, "I really enjoy this game, but..." Bryan's post laid the vitriol for what he saw as poor rules on a li'l thick, but even he was quick to say that he really enjoys the game. Even the most starkly critical voice in these forums has said that he intends to buy the next set, so imputing anti-WotC motives to these folks is a stretch, at best.

It's true that folks' BGG-fu isn't always very good; there are questions they've got that have been addressed several times in multiple threads. But that's the nature of the forums: not everyone is going to be able to mine for the information they need with the same efficacy. To call these folks idiots and morons and accuse them of deliberate stupidity isn't helpful, isn't fun, and isn't friendly, and those three traits are what make the BGG boards so damn amazing in general.


Why are you trying to destroy Ravenloft with your respectful, reasoned and well-intentioned attitude, Holmes? And jeesh! You'd think you could hold off on your excessive "let's treat each other like human beings" whining in response to a clearly non-whining OP.

Goodness, I'm not sure who's worse: the people who have rules questions, or the people like you who enable them by suggesting that they can ask those questions without being berated as the morons and anti-Ravenloft fanatics they so-clearly are.
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Anders Pedersen
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Blorbo wrote:
This game takes the essence of the age old idea of a dungeon crawl and boils it down to only what you need.

For example the move/range one tile thing, as much as it seems to bamboozle so many people, is excellent design. Having played lots of Descent I can tell you tons of time is wasted counting monster movement and range. This game cuts both of these at a very minimal lose.

Or the way each player controls a certain set of monsters/traps. By cutting the usual monster phase you save the game from lagging in his phase and also force each player to be familiar with the whole turn not just their heroes.

I agree it is great and simple design.
The problem I have is with the rule book. It is simply not very well written, IMHO.
Take the questions about movement in regards to crypts an other furniture, as an example: They didn't even need to put in a single extra line of rules. Just show the movement as legal in the example already in the book, and the problem would be solved.

Blorbo wrote:

Or the way each adventure has a very limited preset number of extras. Again people seem confused with 'OMFG WHAT ARE ALL THESE TOKENS FOR' when really if we geeks weren't so anal about needing to know the use to every token and just played the adventures as they are f*$#ing listed it wonldn't be a problem. In fact this is a good way to write rules. You only need to know what is relevant to each adventure as they come so your not bogged down in the minutiae.

I like how FFG and other companies put in a descriptive inventory in their rule books. Those who don't care, and just want to jump into the game, can simply skip that page or two. While those who are puzzled by some token or other can choose to spend 2 minutes of their lives reading about it. I really don't see the problem in people enjoying their games in different ways.
I personally don't want to have the surprises in later scenarios spoiled. So I don't read a scenario until I'm going to play it. But it is nice to know whether I play the game as intended, or if I am overlooking an important rule. So to know a lot of tokens are scenario specific is important to me.
I'm also the type of gamer who likes to organize my gaming pieces. So knowing beforehand what bag to put certain tokens in is helpful.
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chearns
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Blorbo wrote:
Or the way each adventure has a very limited preset number of extras. Again people seem confused with 'OMFG WHAT ARE ALL THESE TOKENS FOR' when really if we geeks weren't so anal about needing to know the use to every token and just played the adventures as they are f*$#ing listed it wonldn't be a problem. In fact this is a good way to write rules. You only need to know what is relevant to each adventure as they come so your not bogged down in the minutiae.


I'm suspecting that I found the rules super easy to understand because I tend to play Euros. I read the rules online. Unboxed. Unpunched. And played. We occasionally had to refresh ourselves for the rules during the first game, but that was it. This game is easy peasy. And the rules manual rocks hard. Just like a Euros rulebook and totally unlike my experience of reading sprawling rulesets like Ameritrash or wargames.

But that's just a guess. I suspect there's something to your geek fetishism of details theory as well. "We must know and map out everything possible before we can start playing" seems to be there as well.

And as a final theory, I'm suspecting some combination of reading the rules without the game in front of you (which always makes things harder, although that's what I did and I understood just fine) as well as poor reading comprehension. Maybe the game is hitting a younger crowd than most games and they are having trouble understanding the rules because they're above their reading comprehension level?

Personal story, just for laughs, I have yet to play an adventure with the skulls or with those corner crypt numbers and we totally haven't asked ourselves what those are for. The rules didn't say anything specific (yet) so we've been happily ignoring them.
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CaptainCosmic wrote:
Holmes! wrote:
Every rules question that I've seen is either value-neutral, or is prefaced with, "I really enjoy this game, but..."

That's just categorically false, as you yourself have participated in a thread called:

"So many stupid rules questions that I shouldn't have to ask. A.k.a. yet another crappy rulebook tarnishes my initial thoughts on what seems to be a great game."

http://bit.ly/appd5e

I'm searching for the "value-neutral" part, and having little luck. I think I'm getting confused by the part where the writer calls it a "thoroughly unthorough" rulebook. In the first sentence.

That's Bryan's thread, which I addressed in my post. Yes, it's true, he trashes the rules. But he still likes the game, which is the point of my thread: folks with questions or even criticisms aren't trying to trash the game in toto, and they're not idiots or morons sowing deliberate stupidity to harsh your mellow. I admire the loyalty to the creators of the game shown by its stalwart defenders, but this protectiveness is a little misguided, and it leads to unfortunate personal attacks on the character of well-meaning folks with questions.
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It is possible to explain your frustration with anything while also being nice at the same time. Notice I said it was possible, not easy. I struggle to do this every single day.

Basic questions are just that, basic. Giving someone the answer is basic as well. It is only by adding sarcasm and cynicism to the answer do we make it it difficult and frustrating.
 
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