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Subject: LORE AND RIVER RULES rss

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Mike Romeo
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Hi everyone it's me again! As you can see I'v bought Battlelore a few weeks ago and I'm enjoying A LOT!!! Very good game didnt enjoyed Memoir' 44 a few years ago but that was just one game and maybe my cards didnt allowed me to do a thing and then I didnt enjoyed. Anyway maybe I should retry it to see if it's good but this game seems really more complete with the lore thing and the creatures and mercenaries and melee combat+range comabt all the expensions and the theme is as great as WW2 if not better because of the fantaisy add to the historical facts. Anyway just to say that since I've gonne through the first 5 scenarios one by one (doing the 4th before 3rd to have dwarf on my side instead of nothing new ;) But the rulesbook is very nice with full of explanation and exemple though sometimes I feel the exemple should more enphase on exceptions than normal gameplay OR more exemples. I wonder how you guys managed to understand all the rules just by reading the book but for me with each scenario I've got new questions that I have to ask here (THANK YOU VERY MUCH EVERYONE!!) So sorry everyone for litterally flooding this site of rules question since 3-4 days but at least people tell me that they are very good question most of the time :) Ok now that I've done the 5th scenario yesterday it's time for Lore Question (Knew that would happen :(( couldnt play with knowing what to DO everytime!!!) and still a Terrain question that I've been answer with 2 contractiction in my previous post:

1. When in scenario 2-3-4-5 and maybe more... special rules state that the river is fordable (or crossable) and fords have no restriction movement. But What about dice? Do river becomes EXACTLY like fords so have to stop but can gain ground and a max of 2 dice out/normal in and FORDS become like normal hex no movement restriction no dice restriction ORRR are they both maxed at 2 dice out/normal in ORRR River isnt max just movement restriction and Fords still maxed at 2 out but no movement restriction?? For me it makes more sence that rivers become like fords with 2 dice out max/normal in and fords become normal hex no movement neither dice restriction???(I've been answered both of the above in a previous thread sooo please shine a light on me on this one!!!)

2. When playing a lore card with command cards it says at the same time. Which units are activated first? The command card is played then unit activated then lore card then unit activated? OR Command care after lore card after Commanded units are activated after Lore units are selected? OR Command card, lore card, lore units activated then command card activated. So basically if you play your lore card just after command card and then the other player plays a card that cancel yours IN REACTION to your lore card can you still choose what unit your command card activated OR youre supposed to have already chosen that unit and then HAVE to activated this unit anyway? (Confusing?)

What if the opponent plays a lore card that has to be played in reaction to your command card is it played BEFORE or After you have activated your units? So after that card is played can you still choose which unit you wish to activated in reaction to that lore card?

3. It says that if a counter lore card is played it cancel the first one there is an exemple in the rulesbook but the result isnt shown so if I play a +1d and then he plays a -1d it is supposed to be -1d for my units right? Not 0 because 1-1=0 right? The first is totally canceled and the other one applys right?

What if theyre not contradictory? The first one then still apply? Like yesterday I played a +1d melee card for all activated units but on one of my units (red cavalry) he played a max 2d (nice move was impressed) then this unit was 2d max and my others unit were still +1d? In other words only the contradictory part is cancel right???


Sounds confusing but hope you guys can really help me!!! Sorry again for all those thread but those questions seems legit to me cause theyre not clearly written and neither can they be answer by logic only. Wonder how you guys managed to understand them all correctly... must be me!!! I'm playing the 6th scenario later today so prepare for some CREATURES RELATED QUESTIONS!!!! already confused with the Trampling thing so If you have any tips maybe it will get me from writing another rules post ;) Thanks a lottttttt VERY NICE GAME!!! one of my favorite!
 
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brian
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1. Battle restrictions still apply. It is just that movement restrictions are "upgraded." So on a river hex, you must stop and battle with a base maximum of 2 dice. On a ford, you do not have to stop but still battle wit a base maximum of 2 dice.

2. If they are played at the same time and the card doesn't give anything more specific, you can activate them in any order.

If there is a reaction card, it usually tells you the timing. Which is most likely after orders have been given but right before movement or right before combat. Most likely you will lose that order and the unit won't be able to do anything or be restricted in some other way.

3. It is hard to answer. If the 2nd doesn't cancel the first, then they should be summed together. Add the one then subtract it. But without the specific cards, it is hard to say how it is to be resolved specifically.
 
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Mike Romeo
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1. Ok so both river and fords will have a max 2d out right?

2. Still it isnt really clear for me, yesterday played a lore card that allowed me +1d in melee THAT had to be played with command card. Then my opponent played a card that CANCEL my lord card for half the price(guess you know which card I'm talking about). So when he played that card I would have like to play another unit to retreat instead BUT COULD I? When he played a countre LORE card should my unit had been chosen at that time?


3. There is 2 simple card, one that give +1d to a unit the other one -1d to a unit? Then is it 0 or -1d?
 
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brian
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1. Yes. But you no longer have to stop on Fords so you could move past it and not take the dice loss.

2. OK, maybe you played Cry Havoc? Your opponent played Dispel Lore? If that is what was played, Cry Havoc affects all ordered units. So it doesn't really matter which unit. But the timing should have been you played your 2 cards and then he played his card to cancel your Lore card. Then you order your units and resolve it.

But this isn't always how Lore cards are resolved. You need to look at the timing of when they play and when they react as printed in the middle of the card in yellow text.

3. I am assuming the +1 was Strength and the -1 was Blinding Light. Blinding Light is played in reaction to the Command Card being played so it drops the unit by -1 die right away. But then Strength is played during Combat so these two cards are not blocking each other. Therefore you would add back the +1. So the net difference is 0 dice. The unit battles as it normally would.
 
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Todd Rewoldt
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
1. Battle restrictions still apply. It is just that movement restrictions are "upgraded." So on a river hex, you must stop and battle with a base maximum of 2 dice. On a ford, you do not have to stop but still battle wit a base maximum of 2 dice.


Smallish point of order here, one has to read carefully in the special rules for the particular scenario whether the shallow river sections stop movement or not. Typically, if normal river hexes are fordable, then the shallow river hexes do not stop movement, but there is at least one scenario (can't quite recall which) that has impassable river hexes, but the shallow river hexes do not stop movement.

But yes, always 2d out/normal in when it comes to river hexes that can be occupied (excepting bridges, of course ).
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Todd Rewoldt
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ColtsFan76 wrote:


3. I am assuming the +1 was Strength and the -1 was Blinding Light. Blinding Light is played in reaction to the Command Card being played so it drops the unit by -1 die right away. But then Strength is played during Combat so these two cards are not blocking each other. Therefore you would add back the +1. So the net difference is 0 dice. The unit battles as it normally would.


I was assuming Mass Might, but same end

And, Mike, personal opinion here, of course, but if you continue to enjoy BattleLore and have any interest (heck, even if you don't ) in WWII era combat games, I suggest giving Memoir '44 another spin. I think often that players new to the C&C system have a difficult time adjusting to the card mechanics for issuing orders, typically finding them excessively restrictive until spending some time getting acquainted with how the mechanics lead to the game flow. Rather small rule changes between the C&C games, but they do have fairly dramatic impacts on what becomes "good play" in each iteration. I like to think those small changes help to model the type of warfare that is thematically present in each game.
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Mike Romeo
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ok thank you but still

2. I know the yellow text says when you play this card but still I explained when those cards needed to be played.

first when it says With Your Command Card, then I play my command card and immediatly after my LORE (With Your Command card) CARD ok and the my opponent plays His LORE CARD (In Reaction To your Opponent LORE CARD) Then are my actived unit already selected by this time Or Can I still choose which unit to activated KNOWING that my LORE CARD as been Cancel by HIS LORE CARD so it affect my choice?

3. Ok right for this one but What if The first card (The +1d card) has to be played With the command card and the -1d card as the be played In reaction to opponent COMMAND CARD (does it exist?) Would it be 1-1=0 or the opponent Card would stand and it will be -1d ? There is an exemple in the rules book in Chapter 9-Lore I think (Lore chapter) when there is two Cards +1d and -1d played but the Results isnt shown...


Sorry for all those questions thank you very much!
 
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brian
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2. The order is play cards, order units, move units, battle units. So if you played your cards and he played in reaction to those cards, then you haven't gotten to the point of ordering units. If you had ordered units, then he lost his opportunity to react to you playing of cards.

3. If two cards are trying to happen at the same time, then the last one played takes precedence and it would cancel the first one. If cards existed like that, the +1 (if it was played first) would be cancelled and the -1 would go through unimpeded. So you would have a -1 net loss of dice. But I don't recall if there are any that line up this way.
 
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Todd Rewoldt
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
So if you played your cards and he played in reaction to those cards, then you haven't gotten to the point of ordering units. If you had ordered units, then he lost his opportunity to react to you playing of cards.


And how strict players want to be in enforcing this is completely up to them. When playing with newer players who are unfamiliar with the proper sequences (playing Mass Shield - a "play in reaction to opponent's command" card - during the movement phase, for example) I prefer to be rather forgiving. Even when playing players who know better, I give them the stinkeye, in case they were gaining an unfair advantage , but play through the misplay.

But there are consistent rules set forth for order of lore play - controlling player has first opportunity during a particular phase, then passive player has opportunity to counter, and so on throughout the phases of the turn. Interesting situations may arise, but typically the order of play is consistent.

Quote:
If two cards are trying to happen at the same time, then the last one played takes precedence and it would cancel the first one. If cards existed like that, the +1 (if it was played first) would be cancelled and the -1 would go through unimpeded. So you would have a -1 net loss of dice. But I don't recall if there are any that line up this way.


There is a thread on here somewhere that goes into more particulars about this, but I think I recall an error in the rule book indicating that a particular card is "trumping" another, when in fact it is merely happening simultaneously. The rule of thumb is, if two cards can happen at the same time (Mass Might and Blinding Light, for example: net effect of both played during the same turn being no change to the amount of dice rolled) they do, if two cards cannot logically be happening at the same time (Mists of Terror played during the command phase, then Fearless played on a particular battle [Fearless trumps Mists of Terror in this case]) then the card played later in the turn trumps the card played earlier.
 
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Mike Romeo
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Thanks a lot! But basically you're both saying the opposite no? First says it trump if played at the same time and dont trump if played later and the later says not trump if played at the same time and trump if played later? Who is right?
 
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brian
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KingAnus3 wrote:
Thanks a lot! But basically you're both saying the opposite no? First says it trump if played at the same time and dont trump if played later and the later says not trump if played at the same time and trump if played later? Who is right?

Partially. First and foremost, there is a specific order when cards can be played. If you follow that, it should answer most questions.

Failing that there are a couple sticky situations (which is why I keep asking for specifics - talking in generalities is somewhat pointless as the cards may not exist or the specific cards are actually clear). The rules say if they try to happen at the same time, the last one trumps. I continue to play that way. If it has changed, it has not been officially changed by FFG that I am aware of.
 
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Aswin Agastya
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2. Remember that if you want to react to something with lore, it should be within the same phase: Play Command Card, Order Phase, Movement Phase, Combat Phase. In lieu/play alongside lore cards are played during the play command card phase. So cards that counter them must also be played during the play command card phase. Then afterwards, you choose which unit to order.
 
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Todd Rewoldt
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
The rules say if they try to happen at the same time, the last one trumps. I continue to play that way. If it has changed, it has not been officially changed by FFG that I am aware of.


I found the section of the rule book I was remembering (at least, I found it on the .pdf that FFG has on there support page - I believe it is the same as in the original rule book):
Page 52 wrote:

CONFLICTING RULES &
Rules Priorities and Precedence

In case of conflict between the basic rules
in this book and the text on a lore card,
the lore card takes precedence.

In case of contradiction between the effects
of two lore cards played in succession,
the second card trumps the effect of the
first one.


And then right below that is the example of Blinding Light being played after an opponent's play of Mass Might, along with the caption "The Wizard’s Mass Might is negated by his nemesis’ Blinding Light!" While I can see how this would lead one to believe that Mass Might is being trumped rather than having its effect negated by Blinding Light (unfortunate choice of an example to follow the rules about conflicting cards played in succession, says me), I think it is clear that there is no contradiction between the effect of Mass Might and that of Blinding Light, rather that both will be in effect during the turn, essentially meaning that neither will be in effect The rule here is about cards such as Mists of Terror and Mass Shield or Fearless that directly contradict each others' effect. Minutiae of BattleLore, I know, but interesting and important situations do arise...

EDIT: This may be an unnecessary addition to the discussion, but say Blinding Light were still targeting units issued orders and the text said something like "all units battle at 2d this turn." Then it would be in conflict with Mass Might, and would trump it. However, if Blinding Light were the first play and then later during the combat phase if the controlling player played Strength, then Blinding Light would be "trumped" (sorta, as it would still have the impact of limiting the base dice value to 2) and the targeted unit would battle with 3d.
 
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Todd Rewoldt
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KingAnus3 wrote:
But basically you're both saying the opposite no? First says it trump if played at the same time and dont trump if played later and the later says not trump if played at the same time and trump if played later? Who is right?


And Mike, no that is not what each of us is saying - later plays always trump plays made earlier in the turn when there is a contradiction in the effects of each of the cards. The question is whether or not a contradiction is occuring or if it will just be simultaneous effects. And, as Brian is pointing out, that depends on which cards are involved in the particular situation.
 
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