Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » OLD BGGBlogs (do not use)

Subject: Does this make the game bad? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
JonMichael Rasmus
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So in our journey to design even more games, we have another idea in development, but it has some play features that I want to hammer out before we even get to the next phase.

#1 Most importantly, it has, in the two or three games of playtesting, been shown to have "kingmaker" feature. Will this sink the game? Should we attempt to mitigate this with something else? The way this works is that the endgame is very tight and while the winner played smart, the kingmaker could or could not have eliminated another player on their way out of the game. Are we asking for trouble (i.e. hurt feelings) with this? The game is already pretty cutthroat.

#2 Early playtesting indicates that the game may be too fast at a maximum of 20 minutes and supports up to 6 players. Is this an issue given that roughly half of the game is piece placement? (a la the opening of DVONN)

#3 While the game is essentially a roll and move game, there are some political elements and some intersting, if light, strategy. Is there any roll and move game that you like? What about it makes it fun?

#4 In an attempt to lengthen the game and/or add more strategy, we discussed the introduction of a finite resource that would impact game progression. Would making a choice at the beginning of every hand (to roll or to use a resource) needlessly add time to the game? Obviously, it would depend on the resources, but I want to focus on the idea intrinsically.

I guess that's it for now. If you have opinions on any of these issues, I'd love to hear them. Again, I'm looking for the gamers' perspective on these issues and y'all have great experience with games both good and bad that I'd like to hear.

Thanks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Have faith
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm no game veteran and I'm a relative newbie to BGG, but here's my short two-cent's worth:

#1
kingmaker feature - YES, IT'S A PROBLEM

#2
too fast - NOT A PROBLEM FOR ME
up to 6 players - THIS IS A GOOD THING
50% piece placement - THIS IS BAD. SEE "fiddly" IN THE BGG GLOSSARY

#3
roll and move - THIS IS BAD. MOST EURO-GAMERS ON THIS SITE WILL DESPISE YOU FOR IT.

#4
resource choices - GOOD THING. RESOURCE MANAGEMENT GAMES ARE POPULAR ON THIS SITE.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Pinnion
United Kingdom
Peterborough
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think if it only takes twenty minutes to play; then neither "roll and move" nor "kingmaker" aspects will hurt. On the other hand 10 minutes setting up the board before play begin sounds annoying for that short a game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben .
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Surrey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quick thoughts
I'll write my first thoughts here, before I ponder them for too long and confuse myself. Bear in mind as they really are my initial feelings, they may well be bizarre and wrong and not even necessarily reflect my own opinion!

1) Kingmaking depends on the group. For small, closed groups, I'm not sure it's as much of an issue as with games played with strangers at cons. Also, it's probably less of an issue if the game plays as quickly as you say it does.

2) If placement is the main strategy of the game, seems okay as long as you sell it to people as such. Take Light Speed as a fine example of a placement-driven game.

3) I have to admit that I'm really not keen on roll & move. Even if the game is still strategic because of other mechanics, the feeling of a direct, strong link between strategic control and geographic positioning is hard to break. Maybe if there is a large number of movement options this can be mitigated.

4) Adding time to a game shouldn't be a problem. Would the decision be a relatively easy one to make (ie. reduce downtime)? The duration of a game is less important than how "quickly" it plays, if you see what I mean.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Derscheid
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe distributed action points instead of roll & move? Unless you're doing something REALLY cool, roll & move is bad.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JonMichael Rasmus
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Not to tip my hand too strongly, but I do think I should add that you do have multiple pieces and multiple directions to move each piece regardless of the roll. These options are winnowed throughout the game.

I'm not sure if piece placement is as bad as I think it is. There are roughly 24 pieces to be placed at the start of the game and while there placement is critical, this phase should go reasonably fast. But since the other half of the game (the movement half) is quick, is this a case of too much set up for not enough game?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim M-L
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
#1- I really don't have a problem with the idea of kingmaking where it fits the game. Given that the whole game only takes 20 min. probably the most obvious way to mitigate this is to have a series of games, such as "the first person to win two rounds".

#2- well, there are games that are all piece placement, such as Cathedral and Carcassonne. If placing the pieces is interesting, this is good, it is only bad if piece placement is boring. I don't find the idea of piece placement in Devon interesting, but in the other games I mentioned, I do. would it be possible to have piece placement be random or perhaps randomly chosen from a set of posibilities- like electronic battleship, where you choose a set up from the instruction booklet?

#3- it took a little while to think of, but I do like the roll and move system in BattleBall. I like that different pieces have different moving options (different dice) and these are directly tied to other aspects of that piece.

#4- i don't really see how this intrinsicly adds time to a game? If it does add time, wouldn't that time just be everyone else waiting while someone decides if they want to spend resources or roll? That's not very fun.

I would be happy to help more if you need more playtesters.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Unspecified
flag msg tools
For the initial placement- Is there any way that you could incorporate the placement into the gameplay? (Such as having 1 round of placing in between turns or something?)

Anyways, best of luck!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Necessary Evil
United States
Glen Arm
Maryland
flag msg tools
Yes, I play the Bass.
badge
Sweet Holy Moses, Fruit F*cker Prime!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Instead of roll and move maybe you could have a system where each player has a set of tiles, each with a number. Thetiles can be played in any order but you can not play the same tile again until all other tiles have been played.

The numbers you include are up to you, they do not have to be 1 - 6. it could be 1 3 3 4 6 or something like that.

-M
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom "Snicker Daddy" Pancoast
United States
Henrico
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have nothing useful to say about kingmaking. I have not had a problem with it, but my gaming experience is currently wider than it is deep. There aren't many games I have re-played enough for kingmaking to be an issue.

Quote:
#2 Early playtesting indicates that the game may be too fast at a maximum of 20 minutes and supports up to 6 players. Is this an issue given that roughly half of the game is piece placement? (a la the opening of DVONN)


Fast can be good. It depends on the depth of the game. Being too short is only bad when you have a really interesting situation which the players do not get a chance to explore before the game ends.

Quote:
#3 While the game is essentially a roll and move game, there are some political elements and some interesting, if light, strategy. Is there any roll and move game that you like? What about it makes it fun?


Roll and Move has a serious stigma around here and is usually bad because the mechanic can play the game for you. That does not have to be the case. Sid Sackson's "I'm the Boss" is essentially a roll and move game, but does not, in my opinion, suffer for it. The movement is a control on your options, but not a limit. In this game, you decide, possibly act, roll if you do not act, decide again, and then act. It is not a case where you roll, move, and get acted on.

The fun in I'm the Boss is the deal making and player interaction, and the Roll and Move does nothing more than set the parameters of the deal. There are alot of other ways to have fun, but in general, it is going to come from player interaction, surprise, or making decisions that matter, not from being manipulated by random die rolls.

Another quick Sid Sackson example is Can't Stop. Again, the roll limits what you do, but does not decide what you do.

Quote:
#4 In an attempt to lengthen the game and/or add more strategy, we discussed the introduction of a finite resource that would impact game progression. Would making a choice at the beginning of every hand (to roll or to use a resource) needlessly add time to the game? Obviously, it would depend on the resources, but I want to focus on the idea intrinsically.


Without knowing the nature of the game, it is hard to say. As above, you need to have more going on than roll, move, do this. Adding an option to decide between spending a resource to move or rolling to move sounds like a step in the right direction, but its hard to say without knowing what other options there are.

Good Luck!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JonMichael Rasmus
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
First, thanks to everyone that's commented so far. This information will help me when I sit down with the other two designers and we brainstorm ways around these issues. BGG is a great resource for this kind of Q&A with the actual in-the-trenches types.

W/r/t roll and move, think of the game as being more like Chutes and Ladders where everyone has four pieces. Now instead of the game playing you, you can use basic strategy to minimize your damage or maximize your position. Of course, our game has player interaction and a dynamic universe along with a finite endgame. And the game is plenty cutthroat in a way that many roll and move games aren't.

But as I said, these comments have been most helpful as to just what is wrong but what can be done to do make it better. Thanks and keep 'em coming!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Potter
United States
Riverside
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
Quote:

W/r/t roll and move, think of the game as being more like Chutes and Ladders where everyone has four pieces. Now instead of the game playing you, you can use basic strategy to minimize your damage or maximize your position. Of course, our game has player interaction and a dynamic universe along with a finite endgame. And the game is plenty cutthroat in a way that many roll and move games aren't.


Er...isn't that Pachisi?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Angie V
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
I prefer games like Carcassonne over roll and move.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Schlichting
United States
Elk River
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
http://www.popebrain.com
badge
Have you seen me?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
More opinions
#1 Kingmaking
I generally don't like it. However, I once read a comment on this site where if a player gets to be "Kingmaker" in a game, then the two people he was going to decide on the winner would lose the game and the Kingmaker would win. For practical purposes, this would not work for most games, but if the rule was integrated into your gameplay somehow, it could be interesting. For a 20 minute game, someone being able to come from behind and take a "Kingmaker" win might be kinda cool.
#2 20 minutes + 6 players + piece placement
This all sounds OK to me.
#3 Roll and move sucks. I don't think I like any game that uses it for a mechanism. Maybe you could do something novel with it. How 'bout, everyone roll at the beginning of the round, and the last place person gets to pick one of the dice first, on up to the first place person, who must take what is left. I'm sure people could come up with a million other variants on the roll and move mechanism.
#4 Resouce management is cool if it fits.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.