Jim Hogan
United States
zimmerman
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is pure conjecture on my part with a little obvious fact.

I've been watching the Ultimate trade lists with a lot of interest lately as they do seem to be a good way to create a nice little swap meet right here on the geek, but as I watch this phenomenon I see more and more a need to regulate this whole deal. For one thing, the owner of the list has complete control over all that happens on the list. He is the regulating body, the executioner, and the lawmaker. Is this a guy we can trust? For one thing, a list owner can steal a trade right out from under you. I saw this today one of the Ultimate trade lists. There was a game H up there with game X following to trade for this and then game W to follow that. Well game W disappeared at a time he designated but then so did x and H. Afterwards I saw a trade proposal from the list owner to trade H for X. In some ways this disturbs me, but the rules on the list says that he is the king and can delete things on the list at any moment. I just write this to be a little wary about these lists as if you're not the owner you have very little control over what happens. As per usual with all transactions "Caveat Emptor"

Any comments on this please reply. I'm interested what other people have to say...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Schlichting
United States
Elk River
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
http://www.popebrain.com
badge
Have you seen me?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Jim,

I'll give you my 2 cents.

I have put games in on these lists about a dozen times, and been booted every time. (I have crap to trade.) I have even ended up being booted after it went below my game two levels, and then slowly creeped back up until I was eventually deleted. Until the list is completed by the owner, nothing is for sure, except that if the trade ends and you are still in it, you will get the game you bid for. That seems to be a good deal to me.

So, if you post something, and the owner decides he wants something above your offer to close the list and boots you, you really aren't out anything. Although I haven't successfully been in one of these, I think the only common problem with the lists is getting them locked up with bad games (which are often mine).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Glidden
United States
Denver
CO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The list owner can never create a situation in which you receive a game other than the one you wanted. Even if they did, you're free to back out of the trade and keep your game. There's really not an issue here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Hogan
United States
zimmerman
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That I understand, but what I talking about is a game you put out there for another, someone puts a game out there for yours. and then the list owner say hey, I have the same game you do. Then does the trade and takes both of them off the list all the while the list keeps going sans your game and the game that was put up to get your game. Then they do the trade right away with the other guy without ending the list because he traded a different game than the one he started with as thats still trading on the list. Funny thing it happened in one that you put out there today popebrain where you bid W for X. I just find this fascinating in a purely ideological way...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Kudzma
United States
Millsboro
Delaware
flag msg tools
designer
People are...
badge
SPOCKED!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
I have said it before, and I will say it again. The simple solution is what was done for journals: Make a trades tab for Geeklists...Painless, eh?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Schlichting
United States
Elk River
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
http://www.popebrain.com
badge
Have you seen me?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I understand what you are saying. I wouldn't have thought of that deviousness. shake

However, there was a user that had X-Bugs for trade in two different lists because he had two copies, and Wyatt Earp also ended up coming up in both lists, one from me and one from someone else. I was watching closely, and the owner did not screw me like that. I think you may have gotten the two lists mixed up.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Glidden
United States
Denver
CO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ahh! The back room deal. I see what you're talking about.

/shrug

You still haven't lost anything other than a trade opportunity that you wouldn't have found in the first place if it weren't for the other guy's trade list.

If it happened to me, I would just start my own trade list. I ran a short one a few days ago.
It's good to be the king.

If the need arises, I think they'll self-correct. If people have bad experiences with trade lists, they'll stop using them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kane Klenko
United States
Ridgeway
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As the creator of the first Ultimate Trade List, here's a little background....
I didn't put the "king" rules in there just so I could do whatever I want, whenever I want, and just screw over a bunch of people in order to get good games. It was simply a safety feature on my part. It was the first one ever done and I didn't know how it was going to work out. I didn't know if it would end in an hour, a day (it did), or 2 weeks. I had no idea. The reason for the "king rules" is that I didn't want to go to bed at night and at 2 in the morning have someone post Taj Mahal and then have it taken while I was sleeping. I wanted the chance to say, 'Hey, I want Taj Mahal, the list stops there'. Sure, maybe it's not quite fair since the other list participants don't have the same luxury, but I thought that I should have that opportunity since I organized the whole thing. While I was trying to get a lot of people games that they wanted, in the end I was really trying to get myself a game that I wanted. Maybe it's not quite fair, but I'm still OK with the setup.
So, that's why I put it in there. I didn't intend for it to be a case where the list moderator all of a sudden decides on game 13 that he really wants game number 4 and then just deletes the rest of the list. I can see where that could be an issue, but it was never my intent.
While I did expect to see a copycat list or two after I started mine, I really didn't expect for it to take off like it did. Maybe the rules need to be modified a little, maybe not. I don't know. I know what my intent is and how I'll handle moderating my own lists, but I'm not the Ultimate Trade Police so I can't speak for everyone elses lists.
As for the problems with list lock-up, my most recent list changed the rules a little in order to try and avoid lock-up. It still needs some tweaks, but hopefully it keeps them moving along a little better.
I feel like I forgot to address some issues, but I've been typing for awhile now so I'm gonna stop.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kane Klenko
United States
Ridgeway
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, and yes, I agree that the easiest way to fix the "problem" of too many UTLs is to simply add a trade tab to the GeekLists. They work much better than the journals. There's no way I'd try to work one of those out in a journal. I like the trade journals, but they don't work for the Ultimate Trades.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Hogan
United States
zimmerman
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
more on this
I think this is a great way to swap, but it gives the list controller a lot of the power. I'll admit I've put some games on there I'm not too interested in and other people feel the same way so I'm not grudging that. It does get you a game you'd like as long as you make the cut. So in essence this can be a good thing and everyone is happy, but as in everything else there might be a bad seed. Someone wrote it will self correct and I think all I'm doing is to get people thinking about that, or at least watching out for themselves. I am still intrigued by these lists so I will keep watching to see what happens and I think you are on to something Kane so dont stop your creativeness on this front. Your next level is even more dynamic than your first list.

jim
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Yes, that's a Japanese CTR ring shield cut in half...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So far, I've enjoyed being a part of the Ultimate Trades!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pierce Ostrander
United States
Albuquerque
New Mexico
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have run several Ultimate Trades and I take the following view: As the list manager it is my duty to "protect" as many traders as I can. I was the list owner in the case in question.

The game for which Whirly was trading had been simultaneously posted on two lists by the same trader. It was not clear to me (or another trader on my list, who contacted my by email and pointed it out) that the owner of the game had two copies, and if so which copy (and its condition) he was offering on each of the two lists.

It was early in the morning on the east coast, and the trader had a CA home listed, so I made an decision to delete his game from my list in order to "protect" any current and future traders beneath him from having the entire leg deleted; and also to protect the traders above him from having this thing drag on as we head down a rabbit trail, and then have to turn around and come back later in the day. It was after 1:00 pm eastern before the poster contacted me to tell me he did have two copies of the game in very good condition.

Yes, I did offer the same game he wanted (which I had on hand) for his game, but this was partly to "protect" him and to show goodwill.

So, the bottom line is that I did my best to cover as many people as possible. The game I am getting is a silly tiddly-wink game. If you take a look at my "games owned" list you will see that it is not my cup of tea. I would have preferred to keep H&Z to trade for something later, but I was trying to do the best I could to keep everyone happy.

So Whirley - if you want this game, I will trade it to you for H&Z - and you get "healed" too. I'm out two shipping charges, but that’s cheap good will to me.

Regards,

Foob
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Hogan
United States
zimmerman
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rebuttal...
Foob,

It wasn't my copy of Hera & Zeus this happened to in question. My copy was deleted hours earlier as noone seemed interested in it in a 2 hour span. That I have no problem with, so really I dont need to be "healed". As I have said before I was just posing a question out for people to chew on and think about. If I was on a witch hunt I would have included your name, but I wasn't trying to point fingers at you. It just happened that it was your list. You wanted to protect your list because a guy was offering xbugs on two lists, so you traded him Hera and Zeus to get Xbugs, so in the end he recieved the game he wanted. I can respect that, it still looked fishy as no comments were placed on the list to say that happened and no comments are allowed by others. So if other people were watching they could all think what went through my mind and I started thinking about this. So I put it out there for others to think about when they look at these lists. Some might think I'm a moron for it so what. I'm not trying to point fingers or destroy these lists. I think Kane did a lot for facilitating trades on the geek, and I have to say he's even taking it to the next level with his multiple trading lines list. I think that the owner of a list has the most control over what happens and has more opportunities to get the game/games they want. As a whole though I think these list provide a lot of happiness as everyone gets a game they want. So all I was doing was posing a question out there to get input..
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pierce Ostrander
United States
Albuquerque
New Mexico
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Whirley,

That is how I took your comment - I just felt that it was important to qualify your reporting of events; because some important additional facts were left out. With the qualification, the whole thing appears much less conspiratorial and underhanded: which was the implication of your post. I did not feel attacked personally. I just wanted to "stand up" for the "goodwill" of these lists in general. They are yet another service of geekdom that I think has much greater potential for good than harm.

And as others have pointed out, there is virtually no potential for harm here... except for that which already exisits when you trade: that someone either will not send you the game you are entitled to, or that it will not be "as advertised".

I LOVE these trade lists (I think I'm addicted) and I want to protect them as an institution of the geek. I do not feel that they need to be regulated (or could be for that matter), because as someones suggested: they are self-regulating. Right now, they are "hot". After we all recycle our collections, or realize that the shipping charges are eating into our new game budget, they will become less hot.

My offer stands. I don't want any reasonable complaint to go unanswered. And I remain happy to trade anytime in the future that we both feel we can both benefit!

Foob
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.