Matthew Russell

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I have researched this fairly welland am pretty unhappy with what I found...hopefully someone here can tell me that I got it wrong. I'm reconstructing this from memory so I apologize for being unable to cite the text verbatim.

Sometimes if the gun is big enough you just want to level the building...never mind targeting the squads inside.

1) In the discussion of target types under multiple targets (weird place for it) the rules state that a player can use the infantry target type to target a building (among other things) even when there is no personnel there...but it doesn't say if you still have to use the TEM to score a hit

2) In the notes to I believe sction B for TEM it says something like 'stone buildings aren't harder to hit than wooden buidlings, but it's harder to place an effective shot'...OK so the concept is there in the rules if only in the notes

Why should it be easier to hit a Mark IV than the multi-story building behind it? If I just want to hit a stone building and try to rubble it to I have to use a TEM of +3 (a '5' at a range 0-6) to try to hitit or just an '8' since I'm not trying to hit a target withing the building?

This becomes even more unpalatable when one has to use the direct fire rules for an air attack...is it really easier to drop a bomb on a AFV than on a big honking building? I really have to get a '5' or less to attack a squad in a stone building with a stuka?

What if I don't want to target the squad but just want to try and level the building? You can't really target a squad with a bomb if they're in a building...not in the 40s anyway

Area target type for this is particularly unsatisfying. 1) it doesn't help much in the to hit process 2) if you hit your chances of rubbling are greatly reduced.

Please tell me I'm missing something here. ASL is so specific in so many instances...how could it be so off the mark in such a basic question?
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Harald Torvatn
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Trondheim
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mettiksvetik wrote:
Why should it be easier to hit a Mark IV than the multi-story building behind it? If I just want to hit a stone building and try to rubble it to I have to use a TEM of +3 (a '5' at a range 0-6) to try to hitit or just an '8' since I'm not trying to hit a target withing the building?


To rubble the building, you have to hit a target within the building: You have to hit a so important structural part that the buliding is sufficenty destroyed to become rubble. Such a part may be more difficult to hit that a vechicle, despite the fact that the building itself is easy to hit.
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Mark Evans
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I am checking the procedure for targeting a building. It is something I have never considered. The rules makes it pretty clear that such a thing is possible [C3.41]. To target a building you must use the infantry target type or the area target type. So you have that correct.

This is unfortunate as the rules are silent as far as I can tell about where to proceed from there. It sounds like your interpretation is reasonable.
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Mark Evans
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Apparently this has come up before. Here is a link to a thread where no real conclusion was reached.

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?72246-Rubble-Ques...
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James Lowry
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You can always fire on an empty location. The usual reason to do this is to gain Acquisition on a Location that the enemy may wish to move into (say, an unoccupied Victory Location).

C6.2 is fairly clear: you must add Case K to hit HIP/Concealed targets. If there are no units in a Location, there is no Case K. If there are HIP units in the Location, they are only subject to an effects roll (with its potential for revealing them) if it hit is gained while applying Case K. If there are concealed and Known units present, Case K applies to the concealed ones. If there are non-hidden/concealed units present that are not Known to the firer, Case K applies (this usually only happens when a MTR fires on a multi-level building, and there are units in Locations not in LOS of the firer).

In the case of an empty building, it is just like any other shot, and there is no Case K. Note that if the only possible result of a die roll is Sniper Activation, the roll is not made. So an effects die roll is only made if the Gun can rubble the Location. Also note, that you cannot gain Acquisition if there is no Known enemy target. So it is also best to use ATT unless you're close enough to get range bonuses to get better than the normal 8TH (+2/3 TEM). Also note using ATT, that any type of building is just as easy to hit, the stone building is just more resistant to rubbling (TEM applies to the effect instead of the TH).
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Paul Franklin-Bihary
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I recently did this in a game I'm playing on VASL. I used ATT to acquire the building hex so that a unit would not be able to gain a good vantage point after skulking out of the hex during movement phase. I got ROF and slapped down my -2acq, but didn't actually rubble the building.

It would be REALLY hard to rubble a building with an HE charge, especially a stone one. Like Harald said above, you'd have to hit an interior support beam, and those old European buildings had some big-ass beams!
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Martí Cabré

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Binko wrote:
I think B24.11 covers the rubble creation process fairly well while C3.41 only adds in some confusion by implying that you can target a building. I wonder if there was ever any errata or clarification of C3.41?


Well, add to that rule 6.5 Case N; Acquired Target. It says that a Gun that fires at a Known unit or a bridge may get acquisition.

So I guess a bridge can be specifically targeted, so a building could also be targeted. C3.41 is clear in both bridges and buildings.
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Matthew Russell

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I appreciate your informed responses. I would guess that many of you are tournament players and I am confident these interpretations are reliable for tournament play.

I don't play in tournaments. In fact I live on the shores of Lake Victoria thousands of miles away from the nearest tournament and only play with my son...so I'm going to go ahead and do something very verboten. I'm going to say what I think a good house rule is and see what you guys think, not in terms of what IS, but rather what SHOULD BE...because the current rules just don't pass the smell test for me concerning this particular detail.

My proposed home rule is the to hit for a terrain feature is an unmodified infantry target type. That is to say...an 8 to hit either a stone or wooden building. 8 is still less than 10, taking into consideration the abstractions of critical structural components. The IFT die roll against the building would be full value and clean (no halving or TEM except the +1 dr for stone). The effect against any infantry in the structure would be area fire with the ordinary TEM.

The argument that you have to have a target to roll on the IFT doesn't hold water for me because using the same logic demo charges wouldn't be able to attack buidlings or bridges unless there was some token 'target' there...and that's just dumb. It's too...gamey. And ASL is supposed to be a premier tactical SIMULATION.

I also kind of wish they would bring back the old SL near miss rule (not the ordnance ASL rule)...because a 150 shell or 500kg bomb has to go somewhere. The whole idea of having a stuka divebomb a crowded mapboard area, miss it's die roll and have NO EFFECT AT ALL...that's stupid. Bombs have to land somewhere. Something like an artillery drift roll with the bomb resolved as area fire seems appropriate.

OK...flame away.

Maybe ASL compatible products (critical hit, heat of battle) are my answer. I've never bought any but I know some of them introduce 'grudge rules' that apply only to their particular product... is anyone aware of an ASL comp peoduct that addresses this issue?


 
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Mark Evans
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None of the issues you brought up are in a third party grudge rule that I am aware of. The game can be quite gamey as it is a game. How hard is it to topple a structure with an HE round? It is hard to answer that accurately. If your opponent is willing to play house rules have at it. I'd be willing to play by your house rules for a free room in the guest quarters on Lake Victoria.
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Dan The Man
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NOT ASL, but in the same family:

Squad Leader later modules allow you to target the building, and the taller it is, the easier it is to target. The DRM that would normally apply to the To Hit DR applies instead to the To Kill DR. KIA rubbles the building.

Obviously, they changed this for ASL, but did not really think it through...
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