Recommend
12 
 Thumb up
 Hide
48 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: Anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War... rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Steve Arthur
Australia
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Today is the anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War...according to Wikipedia some 12 nations including 10 Arab states as well as Cuba and North Korea took part against Israel...the US (and presumably NATO) and the Soviet Union very nearly got directly involved as well...did the manner in which the war's battles were fought present implications for modern warfare in general in that time of Cold War tension?...given the forces arrayed against them could the Israelis have lost and with what consequences?...how close did the world come to global conflagration at that time?...could it happen again or is the world now a very different place?...comments please!
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mb
It did point out the glaring vulnerability from SAM vs Aircraft WHEN you employed as many with what you HAD on that aspect. The same with improved RPG Anti-Tank projectiles liberally doled out also. ol' Joe Stalin was correct in stating: "there IS a certain quality with QUANTITY!" Having numerical superiority in whichever, almostly will do it every time!
robot
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roy Hasson
Israel
Kfar Saba
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One of the key interesting strategic issues the war illustrated is what happens when deterrence fails. Israel was under the impression that it's military might and presumptive nuclear capabilities were deterring the Arab countries from trying to attack it. However this deterrence had ceased to be effective facing the real Egyptian war aims - to end the status-quo that had been in place since 1967 rather than to re-take Sinai and defeat Israel.

Another interesting thing is the failure of Israeli intelligence to detect these aims and of course the signs of war before it was too late. The terrible thing is that the top brass of the military intelligence claimed there would be no war, despite having concrete indications to the contrary - not to mention warnings by both King Hussein and Ashraf Marwan, Nasser's son in law.

This year some formerly top-secret protocols of Israeli government debates during the first days of the war were released. They are very interesting as they show for that Israel declined to make a preemptive strike on the Arab forces even when they finally decided war was imminent on the morning of October 6th 1973, so as not to anger the US and portray Israel as the aggressor. These protocols make very interesting reading to any student of the war.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Vasey
Scotland
Mortlake, London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Atraxrobustus wrote:
Today is the anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War...according to Wikipedia some 12 nations including 10 Arab states as well as Cuba and North Korea took part against Israel...the US (and presumably NATO) and the Soviet Union very nearly got directly involved as well...did the manner in which the war's battles were fought present implications for modern warfare in general in that time of Cold War tension?...given the forces arrayed against them could the Israelis have lost and with what consequences?...how close did the world come to global conflagration at that time?...could it happen again or is the world now a very different place?...comments please!


Why would NATO have become involved?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roy Hasson
Israel
Kfar Saba
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Why would NATO have become involved?


In some ways the Yom Kippur war was a war by proxy between the US and USSR and certainly a testing ground for their latest weapons and tactics. During the war the US airlifted a massive amount of supplies to Israel (known as "operation Nickel Grass") while the USSR resupllied its allies. This of course put the two superpowers in a very tense situation.
Additionally. after the USSR told the US they that if the US did not join in with the in "restraining" Israel, they (the USSR) would be forced to do so on their own, the US raised its DEFCON from 4 to 3. This of course had immediate implications for NATO.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mb
Atraxrobustus wrote:
Today is the anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War...according to Wikipedia some 12 nations including 10 Arab states as well as Cuba and North Korea took part against Israel...the US (and presumably NATO) and the Soviet Union very nearly got directly involved as well...did the manner in which the war's battles were fought present implications for modern warfare in general in that time of Cold War tension?...given the forces arrayed against them could the Israelis have lost and with what consequences?...how close did the world come to global conflagration at that time?...could it happen again or is the world now a very different place?...comments please!
Charles Vasey wrote:
Why would NATO have become involved?
zombie "What's NATO precious-s-s-s-s-?..."
wow "EUR-NA-TO"!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mb
One or many tangents for the entire situation was NOT to lose Israel, so as to hold onto there as some salient sally point akin to "Tobruk" for within the region. ONLY these could RELY upon one another there then, and should the stakes increase to include the "Big GUNS" now, that would stifle or cancel one another OUT. They would be more concerned with or about WHAT they are to be doing, and no longer SUPPLY them others to conserve with such for their uses instead. Keeping that localized, also created the NEED on keeping these around as well with their needs and demands. M.A.D. as it seemed, yet it WERE the ONLY "logistical choice"!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lucius Cornelius
United States
HONOLULU
Hawaii
flag msg tools
badge
Lord Protector of Nothing in Particular
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Desert Expansion of the Korean War.
Israel was better prepared, despite the intelligence slip, and the Arabs obviously didn't read Sun-Tzu: Never attack the enemy that has no way-out.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Arthur
Australia
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Charles Vasey wrote:
Atraxrobustus wrote:
Today is the anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War...according to Wikipedia some 12 nations including 10 Arab states as well as Cuba and North Korea took part against Israel...the US (and presumably NATO) and the Soviet Union very nearly got directly involved as well...did the manner in which the war's battles were fought present implications for modern warfare in general in that time of Cold War tension?...given the forces arrayed against them could the Israelis have lost and with what consequences?...how close did the world come to global conflagration at that time?...could it happen again or is the world now a very different place?...comments please!


Why would NATO have become involved?


I was assuming that if some sort of armed confrontation broke out between US and Soviet Union because of the war rest of NATO would become involved as well...maybe this is an incorrect assumption...what was the British government's attitude towards protagonists in the Yom Kippur conflict?...

For the record the Australian government of the time was a left leaning Labor administration that had opted not to condemn the attack on Israel and had openly critised many aspects of US foreign policy including the war in Vietnam...if a wider war had broken out I suspect that the government would have tried to keep Australia neutral...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lucius Cornelius
United States
HONOLULU
Hawaii
flag msg tools
badge
Lord Protector of Nothing in Particular
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Atraxrobustus wrote:
]I was assuming that if some sort of armed confrontation broke out between US and Soviet Union because of the war rest of NATO would become involved as well...maybe this is an incorrect assumption...what was the British government's attitude towards protagonists in the Yom Kippur conflict?...

NATO stands for North Atlantic Treaty Organization, led by the U.S. and the U.K. against the Soviets. Any threat to U.S. or free Europe would have brought in NATO, since that is what it is for. So your assumption is correct.
And since U.K. supported the creation of Israel in return for their help during the WW1, you can say they are the cause of the Yom Kippur War.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roy Hasson
Israel
Kfar Saba
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, that is an interesting concept, to say the the UK is the cause of the war..

Granted the Balfour Declaration was important to the creation of Israel but I think it is a bit of stretch to say that it directly caused Israel's creation and therefore the war. The war had many reasons, not the least of which was the Arab wish to avenge the 1967 Six Day War and also as I mentioned in my post above to change the strategic situation that developed after it, coupled with the Israeli refusal to discuss peace with Egypt prior to the war.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lucius Cornelius
United States
HONOLULU
Hawaii
flag msg tools
badge
Lord Protector of Nothing in Particular
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mogli43 wrote:
Wow, that is an interesting concept, to say the the UK is the cause of the war..

I meant it in the sense that Roman siege of Jerusalem and consequent destruction of the Temple is the cause of new Israel.
A dim-witted attempt at sounding clever...
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roy Hasson
Israel
Kfar Saba
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I stand corrected Sir.

No doubt it is all the Egyptian's fault since Pharaoh drove out the Israelites from Egypt forcing them to move to Canaan..
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lucius Cornelius
United States
HONOLULU
Hawaii
flag msg tools
badge
Lord Protector of Nothing in Particular
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mogli43 wrote:
No doubt it is all the Egyptian's fault since Pharaoh drove out the Israelites from Egypt forcing them to move to Canaan..

I thought Moses twisted his arm until he cried uncle.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Williams
United States
Middle River
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Everyone play a game of AIW to commemorate!

The Arab-Israeli Wars
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Looking forward to play a combined game of Yom Kippur and Heights of Courage by the 40th anniversary, in 2013...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Elijah Lau
Singapore
Singapore
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Heights of Courage available for pre-order now at MMP.

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/Products/tabid/58/ProductI...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Elijah Lau
Singapore
Singapore
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sullafelix wrote:
The Desert Expansion of the Korean War.
Israel was better prepared, despite the intelligence slip, and the Arabs obviously didn't read Sun-Tzu: Never attack the enemy that has no way-out.


Why didn't Israel have a way out?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Terhune
United States
Colorado Springs
Colorado
flag msg tools
This is a blatant example of frivolous geek gold spending.
badge
I spent 100 geek gold and all I got was this lousy overtext.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
elijah234 wrote:
sullafelix wrote:
The Desert Expansion of the Korean War.
Israel was better prepared, despite the intelligence slip, and the Arabs obviously didn't read Sun-Tzu: Never attack the enemy that has no way-out.


Why didn't Israel have a way out?

Completely surrounded on all sides by hostile countries with no friendly nation to retreat to. In an all-out war, it's win or die.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Elijah Lau
Singapore
Singapore
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
But this is not 1948 or 1967. In 1973, Egypt and Syria were not looking to annihilate Israel. They had much more limited objectives in the Yom Kippur War. Shazli's High Minarets plan only called for Egypt to seize up to 5-6 miles from the Suez Canal. Syria's plan to recapture Golan Heights was slightly more ambitious than the Egyptians but they weren't planning to drive all the way to Jerusalem.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
elijah234 wrote:
But this is not 1948 or 1967. In 1973, Egypt and Syria were not looking to annihilate Israel. They had much more limited objectives in the Yom Kippur War. Shazli's High Minarets plan only called for Egypt to seize up to 5-6 miles from the Suez Canal. Syria's plan to recapture Golan Heights was slightly more ambitious than the Egyptians but they weren't planning to drive all the way to Jerusalem.


At the time, that was likely not known.

Israel is always against the wall, from the Israeli point of view.

The Arab Rhetoric/Propaganda had been that Israel needed to be wiped out.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Johnson
United States
Seguin
TX
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Charles Vasey wrote:
Atraxrobustus wrote:
Today is the anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War...according to Wikipedia some 12 nations including 10 Arab states as well as Cuba and North Korea took part against Israel...the US (and presumably NATO) and the Soviet Union very nearly got directly involved as well...did the manner in which the war's battles were fought present implications for modern warfare in general in that time of Cold War tension?...given the forces arrayed against them could the Israelis have lost and with what consequences?...how close did the world come to global conflagration at that time?...could it happen again or is the world now a very different place?...comments please!


Why would NATO have become involved?


What's the point of NATO today?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Vasey
Scotland
Mortlake, London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Atraxrobustus wrote:
Charles Vasey wrote:
Atraxrobustus wrote:
Today is the anniversary of the start of the Yom Kippur War...according to Wikipedia some 12 nations including 10 Arab states as well as Cuba and North Korea took part against Israel...the US (and presumably NATO) and the Soviet Union very nearly got directly involved as well...did the manner in which the war's battles were fought present implications for modern warfare in general in that time of Cold War tension?...given the forces arrayed against them could the Israelis have lost and with what consequences?...how close did the world come to global conflagration at that time?...could it happen again or is the world now a very different place?...comments please!


Why would NATO have become involved?


I was assuming that if some sort of armed confrontation broke out between US and Soviet Union because of the war rest of NATO would become involved as well...maybe this is an incorrect assumption...what was the British government's attitude towards protagonists in the Yom Kippur conflict?...

For the record the Australian government of the time was a left leaning Labor administration that had opted not to condemn the attack on Israel and had openly critised many aspects of US foreign policy including the war in Vietnam...if a wider war had broken out I suspect that the government would have tried to keep Australia neutral...


Absent an attack on a NATO nation there was no chance of any-one doing anything. Had the US joined in on Israel's side I doubt the only nations with much clout (Britain and France) would have done anything. France was outside the command structure and Britain fighting in Ulster and in the midst of industrial strife.

When Britain's Falklands colony was invaded there was no general NATO action against Argentina. I suspect similar considerations apply here.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Elijah Lau
Singapore
Singapore
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wilhammer wrote:
elijah234 wrote:
But this is not 1948 or 1967. In 1973, Egypt and Syria were not looking to annihilate Israel. They had much more limited objectives in the Yom Kippur War. Shazli's High Minarets plan only called for Egypt to seize up to 5-6 miles from the Suez Canal. Syria's plan to recapture Golan Heights was slightly more ambitious than the Egyptians but they weren't planning to drive all the way to Jerusalem.


At the time, that was likely not known.

Israel is always against the wall, from the Israeli point of view.

The Arab Rhetoric/Propaganda had been that Israel needed to be wiped out.


Agree. But I was referring to the error in the earlier comment that the Arabs did not read Sun-Tzu about not attacking an enemy with no way out. Clearly, the Arabs learnt their lesson in 1973 and fought a war with limited goals.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Vasey
Scotland
Mortlake, London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sullafelix wrote:
The Desert Expansion of the Korean War.
Israel was better prepared, despite the intelligence slip, and the Arabs obviously didn't read Sun-Tzu: Never attack the enemy that has no way-out.


The Egyptians did rather well out of it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.