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Subject: "Tea Party Values are Hippie Values" rss

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Chad Ellis
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Drew1365 wrote:
I doubt that many of you who aren't already persuaded by the Tea Party movement will be willing to jettison any preconceived notions, but just imagine what might happen if you opened your mind a bit.


In another thread you asked, "We were never going to have a "fruitful discussion" about it, were we?" and I answered basically that for us that ship seems to have sailed.

Openings like this are a large part of why.
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Matt
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Hippies dont care if gay people get married. Hippies also dont support out of control spending on war. Hippies also care about the environment.
At least the ones I know.
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The article Drew linked is true to what I understood from actually having been around Hippies and the whole "movement". As a disclaimer I'll state clearly that it was Hippie girls that attracted me, not the "movement".

Almost all Hippies were not overly political. Instead they expressed many of the values the article addressed and were definitely against the Great Society as well as any foreign military intervention. Despite the whole image of Hippies as drug-addled morons (some were, but a minority) there was a real independent streak and many of the Hippies became small business people and employed others, built businesses and added to the economy in hundreds of different ways that were legal and not related to growing and distributing dope.

The dark side of the Hippies was not actually the Hippies. It was the Yippies (who were political) and that meant people like Bill Ayers, Abbie Hoffman and groups like the SDS and Weatherman Underground. In fact, the article Drew linked yesterday about new Christians had some info (I think it was that article) about Hippies turning into Christians. That was a real powerful trend in the early to mid-70's as significant portions of the Hippie culture became parents and responsibility began trumping Love-ins and buying school clothes was more important than scoring a kilo of bodacious weed.

To really understand the difference between the apolitical Hippies and the darker, more sinister elements that historians have lied to new generations about I recommend finding a copy of David Horowitz's "Radical Son" where he details the methods employed by the Berkeley Underground, Black Panthers and other non-Hippie elements intent on collapsing America so they could replace it with a benevolent communist regime... run by them, of course.
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bjlillo wrote:
I've already been called a hippie here. I don't need you encouraging that kind of behavior Drew.


Go back to San Francisco, Hippie!
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Matt
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Drew1365 wrote:
MaximumPain wrote:
Hippies dont care if gay people get married. Hippies also dont support out of control spending on war. Hippies also care about the environment.
At least the one I know.


Uh-huh. Didn't read it, either, did you?


No I just don't agree with it. I grew up around Hippies and their children are my friends. Any similarities with the Tea party are idealistic and don't match the candidates they are putting up. Hippies would be closer to a green party than a tea party. If the Tea party wants to start fighting the corporate oligarchy then they will move a step closer to the Hippies.
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Chad Ellis
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Drew1365 wrote:
Don't open your mind, Chad. Dismiss the article entirely. Hold on tightly to your stereotypes. For God's sake, don't actually READ it! You might have to think about it. Keep your mind pure.


You've missed the point. One of the reasons I came back to RSP is that there are posters here who have shown me that I was completely wrong about things and who by doing so have changed my perspective. But have a nice day anyway.
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DCAnderson wrote:


Hippies on the other hand were not just anti-establishment, but anti-traditional society as well.


It boggles the mind how you arrived at this conclusion. The counter-culture movement was (in that era) not anti "tradition".... it was pro independence and outraged at Big Government... you know... The Man. Much of the rhetoric may have appeared on the surface to be leftist or anti-conservative, but only if filtered through the erroneous idea that people who don't like government control over them are automatically Democrats. They hated democrats, they hated government control, they were anti liberal.... not anti conservative.

Look, if anyone is really interested in how the upheavals of the 60's affect modern political thinking you need to do some outside reading. I recommend establishing a list of prominent figures from the era and then seeking out their own writings in order to get a clear picture of what was really happening and how it evolved into a modern day movement of people may age (and the generation behind mine) who are increasingly aligning with something like Tea Party "values".
 
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That two axis chart is horseshit, because the author's criteria for placing people on it makes very little sense.

The most egregious example is the social conservatives. Those are, in no way, shape or form, on the less side of 'government control'. They are less collectivist than the islamist, but not by much. I could make similar arguments about other groups, but I'm sure anyone with a semblance of rationality can make the argument themselves.

Another beautiful piece of misinformation is to put Obama and FDR in the same box. They are quite far away from each other.

And finally, there's the groups that are missing: Not having half of the left represented in there at all helps the chart author to make this chart have a real main axis, which is diagonal, and only reflects the truth in the loosest of senses.

In a political studies class, the maker of this chart would get an F, but I guess he'll complain about how that would be caused by how the evil socialists have infiltrated academia and are destroying the one true american way of life.
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DWTripp wrote:
DCAnderson wrote:


Hippies on the other hand were not just anti-establishment, but anti-traditional society as well.


It boggles the mind how you arrived at this conclusion. The counter-culture movement was (in that era) not anti "tradition".... it was pro independence and outraged at Big Government... you know... The Man. Much of the rhetoric may have appeared on the surface to be leftist or anti-conservative, but only if filtered through the erroneous idea that people who don't like government control over them are automatically Democrats. They hated democrats, they hated government control, they were anti liberal.... not anti conservative.



Sure the hippies were against "the man" but it was because of the war and damage to the earth "the man" was responsible for. Of course they hated Democrats (and Republicans) because they supported the war the establishment supported the war and it still does. What ever label you want to place on whatever part of this dog and pony show makes no difference even now much less 40 years ago.

The Hippies I knew were already slamming on big oil back in the 70s. And they most certainly didn't want their kids to be sent to some shithole on the other side of the world to make sure big oil could still get paid.
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I particularly like the bit where the writer suggests that since hippies opposed Lyndon Johnson's decision to escalate in Vietnam, they therefore also opposed civil rights. The part where he shows an image of an anti-war poster using the words "Great Society" to prove that hippies hated anti-poverty programs is particularly brilliant in its dumbfuckishness. He quotes Bill Whittle saying that humans are inherently selfish and flawed to suggest that hippies agreed with this, which was more or less the entire antithesis of the hippie movement. He says hippies rejected "artificially constructed collectivist utopias" when that basically describes the whole commune movement. He suggests that the reason Richard Nixon won in 1968 was because of hippies abandoning LBJ and voting Republican, adding that hippies obviously supported Republicans because they didn't protest the 1968 Republican national convention but instead protested the Democratic convention. I guess them protesting the 1972 Republican convention was just some sort of weird fluke.

I mean, you've linked to some remarkably stupid shit in the past, Drew, but this really takes the cake.
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DCAnderson wrote:

Holy crap, you didn't read what I wrote at all did you.


Of course I did. You admitted some generic similarities and then ended up making a statement that is false regarding a cultural movement from the 60's. Trying to pass the whole thing off as not really significant because it was 40 years ago is pretty weak sauce... and that's what it appears you think. 40 years ago I was 20 years old. In the late 60's most of the people in the movement were in their teens or very early 20's. That makes them all roughly my age. As a voting demographic my age group responds and votes at a much higher rate than any other age group.

Conclusion? That the supposedly radical movement of the 60's... misidentified as counter-culture or pro-liberal... has basically evolved into the most reliable and consistent voting bloc in America today. And most of us are not anti-establishment or pro big government. That was the point the article was making... it offered insight on how the TP is similar to the Hippie movement and reasonably presented a series of connections that make sense in 2010 when trying to figure out the attraction of the TP.

 
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Drew1365 wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
I doubt that many of you who aren't already persuaded by the Tea Party movement will be willing to jettison any preconceived notions, but just imagine what might happen if you opened your mind a bit.


In another thread you asked, "We were never going to have a "fruitful discussion" about it, were we?" and I answered basically that for us that ship seems to have sailed.

Openings like this are a large part of why.


Don't open your mind, Chad. Dismiss the article entirely. Hold on tightly to your stereotypes. For God's sake, don't actually READ it! You might have to think about it. Keep your mind pure.
My 2 cents. Of all of my political and/or ideological opponents around here, Chad deserves this least.
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Wrayman wrote:
My 2 cents. Of all of my political and/or ideological opponents around here, Chad deserves this least.


That might be why he gets hit hard when he does deserve it.
 
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I had a discussion with a friend of mine the other day. Both of us are more or less social left-wingers and fiscal moderates-or-rightward.

What we were talking about was the disconnect that we see between how the Tea Party presents itself in its core values (small government, etc.) and the ideology of the people we know who claim to identify with the Tea Party (essentially, angry right-wing Moral-Majority-type people). What we concluded is that we both find the fiscal-responsibility aspect of the Tea Party highly attractive (since neither Republicans nor Democrats seem inclined or perhaps even capable of taking that kind of approach) but that we are highly wary of the movement because of the people we know who comprise it.

Anyway, I read the article and can easily believe that Tea Party sentiments, as articulated by people who consider themselves to be the voice of the movement, are consistent with hippie-era sentiments. I just don't have much faith that Tea Party "members", and thus Tea Party candidates, share those views.
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quozl wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
My 2 cents. Of all of my political and/or ideological opponents around here, Chad deserves this least.


That might be why he gets hit hard when he does deserve it.


He doesn't deserve this. I usually stay out of meta-debate, but I completely agree with him that a message that I read as saying something like "Here's an article, but I know that most of you aren't open-minded enough to look at it fairly" is not fruitful or likely to lead to constructive discussion. In short, I agree with him, and I think that claiming that this belief shows closed-mindedness is both inaccurate and unfair.
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Chad Ellis
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quozl wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
My 2 cents. Of all of my political and/or ideological opponents around here, Chad deserves this least.


That might be why he gets hit hard when he does deserve it.


I didn't dismiss Drew's argument. I pointed out that his habit of beginning threads by insulting those who might take the other side is part of why I don't bother trying to discuss things with him any more.
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quozl wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
My 2 cents. Of all of my political and/or ideological opponents around here, Chad deserves this least.


That might be why he gets hit hard when he does deserve it.


Except he didn't deserve it.

While I can't say I've done a great deal of research on the Hippie movement, it strikes me that they'd be much closer to Marxist/communist leaning Anarchists than the Tea Party from what I have read and seen. Comparing them to the tea party is sort of like comparing the Sons of Liberty to the Bolsheviks. Yeah, they both rebelled, but beyond that there's little commonality.
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Drew1365 wrote:
I guess my RSP experiences are different than yours. Note, for example, MGK's routine and predictable tendency to take anything I post and turn and attack me for posting it.


I merely said you linked to stupid shit. This says nothing about you as a person, Drew! I'm just saying the shit you linked to is shit! Just like how you starting out with "I know all you liberals have already made up your minds and won't consider new ideas" isn't an attack on liberals; it's just a polite suggestion!
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Yes, in the sense that both are movements of white, privileged people which focus on how they deserve their rights and away from why and how these rights were aquired, approaching them in a self-centered instead of solidary way. The details vary, but both are movements for well-off middle class people who feel relevant and socially conscious while avoiding actual social struggles.
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When I think hippe Dick Armey and Sara Palin always pop into MY head.

Follow the leadership, follow the money.
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Stuff that demonstrates the TP has about as much to do with the Hippies as I have to do with the John Birch Society:

A Gallup poll on their views. How many hippies would self-describe as "conservative" the way that 70% of the TP respondents did?

Another poll on the political views of the TP. This one shows that TP members tend to out-conservative the Republican party and holds social views I don't think many hippies would subscribe to.

And here's another one. There's lots in here, but notice the age distribution of the TP? I don't recall the hippie movement being concentrated on the "close to retirement" segment.

They're about as close together politically as Goldwater and FDR were.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
quozl wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
My 2 cents. Of all of my political and/or ideological opponents around here, Chad deserves this least.


That might be why he gets hit hard when he does deserve it.


I didn't dismiss Drew's argument. I pointed out that his habit of beginning threads by insulting those who might take the other side is part of why I don't bother trying to discuss things with him any more.


For the record, I really have no idea if Chad did or did not deserve it this time.

That doesn't matter.

Whether someone deserves something or not is all about perception. Chad's comment was definitely perceived that way by Drew. Strangely enough, if one wants to continue to be perceived as fair and openminded, one has to be fair and openminded even to people who you think are unfair and closeminded. I know I fall short of this standard a lot more than Chad does but Chad is only fooling himself if he thinks he never falls short.
 
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quozl wrote:
That doesn't matter.


Then we've different definitions of "what matters." I don't think you get to call someone closed-minded when your starting premise for the conversation doesn't exactly scream unbiased, balanced, or even interested in getting a thoughtful response.

But then, I usually just ignore threads Drew starts because it's more likely that I'll end up having a chat with MMM than it is there will be a discussion I actually care about having.
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perfalbion wrote:
But then, I usually just ignore threads Drew starts because it's more likely that I'll end up having a chat with MMM than it is there will be a discussion I actually care about having.


And that's the best method of dealing with it!
 
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corross wrote:
I had a discussion with a friend of mine the other day. Both of us are more or less social left-wingers and fiscal moderates-or-rightward.

What we were talking about was the disconnect that we see between how the Tea Party presents itself in its core values (small government, etc.) and the ideology of the people we know who claim to identify with the Tea Party (essentially, angry right-wing Moral-Majority-type people). What we concluded is that we both find the fiscal-responsibility aspect of the Tea Party highly attractive (since neither Republicans nor Democrats seem inclined or perhaps even capable of taking that kind of approach) but that we are highly wary of the movement because of the people we know who comprise it.

Anyway, I read the article and can easily believe that Tea Party sentiments, as articulated by people who consider themselves to be the voice of the movement, are consistent with hippie-era sentiments. I just don't have much faith that Tea Party "members", and thus Tea Party candidates, share those views.
My suspicion is that you are correct. I suspect that many potential liberal allies are turned off by the prevailing conservative culture of the Tea Party movement. It is unfortunate. Not surprising though. From the very get go, the movement was painted as right wing. While I think that media bias influenced that, I also think that the movement was largely right wing at its inception. That is understandable given that Democrats have been in sole control of the Executive and Legislature for so long. Of course opposition is going to percolate among Republicans first.

The details swirl about and confound reason but the bottom lines as I see them are simple.

Partisanship is corrosive. ( That is is no way a dig at Lawson! ) We would do well to do as Glenn Beck has said for years, which is to take principles more seriously than parties.

The most important thing at the moment is limiting government and we should try to set aside liberal and conservative differences in order to serve that greater need. It is encouraging that Democrats are currently running as small government advocates. No one is resting on the laurels of their recent progressive triumphs. The nation is clamoring for federal restraint and the Democrats are responding. While I see it as part unsavory politicking, I also see it as a favorable sea change in the political climate.
 
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