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Subject: Movement and Maneuver rss

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Gustavo Motta
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- I can only maneuver my boat, turning 45 or 90 degree, after the boat moviment (1, 2 or 3 espaces)? Or I can pivot the boat before the movement?

- If I'm "Broad Reaching" (3 spaces), I can move one space, pivot the boat and continue my two movements?

 
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Adam
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gusxokleng wrote:


- If I'm "Broad Reaching" (3 spaces), I can move one space, pivot the boat and continue my two movements?



No, that is pivoting during the middle of a leg. You are only allowed to pivot the boat between legs. In other words, a leg must be completed in a straight line.
 
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Ryan Keane
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I play that you always decide whether to pivot at the beginning of a leg. You can't pivot at the end of a leg movement.

So if your final leg is beam reach, you cannot pivot to broad reach at the end in order to be able to raise the spinnaker at the beginning of your next turn. You will still be in beam reach heading at the beginning of your next turn, even if your first leg is pivoting to broad reach and moving 3.

The OP's post is really old, but may I ask where did you get that you can only turn 45 or 90 degrees? We play that you can turn up to 135 degrees (running to beating or beating to running) without requiring an extra leg for heading change, or 135 degrees (jibing beam port to broad starboard, etc.) with an extra leg required for heading change (per advanced rules).
 
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William Jason Raynovich
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Hello,
I am looking for these exact questions as well.

So, here are mine. Hoping to get a game of this in maybe tonight.

So, when can you decide to pivot?

ANSWER?: At the beginning of your turn?

How much can you pivot?

ANSWER?: 135? Why not 180? Is there a reason that is NOT explicitly allowed? Is it really 135? The rules do not state this correct?

I have been reading the rules from a couple of different places. I have the AH edition. I am looking for the rule that you lose a leg when crossing a jib. I do not think it is there. Is it? If not, which rules is that in?

Help?
William
 
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Cad Yellow-Light
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raynovich wrote:

So, when can you decide to pivot?
ANSWER?: At the beginning of your turn?


A game-designer I know once told me that most rules questions come from someone's attempt to read something into the rules that isn't there.

Both the 3M and the AH rules says a leg is movement in a straight line, and explicitly says a boat can change course between legs. It seems easiest and most natural to play that a boat can pivot at the beginning of any leg. If it may pivot only at the end of the leg, then the question arises of whether, on the first leg of a turn, a boat must move in the direction it was left pointing at the end of the last move. That issue is not mentioned in the rules, and it seems to add a complication for no discernible gain in playability or fun. All it would accomplish is that on one leg per turn, a captain must choose his heading before he knows the wind direction, but on all the others, he chooses heading after learning the wind direction. The rules don't specify a difference, so why assume one?

Quote:
How much can you pivot?
ANSWER?: 135? Why not 180? Is there a reason that is NOT explicitly allowed? Is it really 135? The rules do not state this correct?


The 3M rules do not limit how far a boat can pivot (and I don't think the AH rules do, either), so I assume there is no limit, as long as the boat pays its 1-leg penalty for crossing the wind if it tacks or jibes in the process.

It seems a bit of a non-issue to me anyway. It's rare enough that anyone wants to pivot by more than 90°, very rare that anyone wants to pivot more than 135°, and it's pointless to pivot more than 180°, since you can get to the same angle in fewer degrees with the same number of wind-crossings, by pivoting the other direction.

Quote:
I have been reading the rules from a couple of different places. I have the AH edition. I am looking for the rule that you lose a leg when crossing a jib. I do not think it is there. Is it? If not, which rules is that in?


The 3M rules and the AH rules state:

Heading moves [horrible, confusing term] are used to change course when the rules demand. Each heading move equals one leg; a player may not make two consecutive heading moves in one turn. The following examples illustrate when heading moves must be used:

1. Tacking and Jibing - As some headway is lost in these maneuvers, one leg must be sacrificed every time the bow of the boat swings across the eye of the wind. These are called heading moves.

2. Luffing - A wind change can leave a yacht in a luffing position. When this happens, the skipper of the luffing yacht must make a heading move to change course before he can make any other move. Although it is usually an unlikely move, a player may luff purposely, but he must use a heading move to begin luffing and a second heading move to recover.



In the intentional luff, it's not clear if the first "heading move" into the luff, counts as the leg spent luffing, or is in addition to it. I assume the former (a total of two legs lost to the maneuver, one in and one out), but the latter (three legs lost) is drastic, but conceivably what was meant. And can a boat turn out of an intentional luff by crossing the wind? Does that cost yet another one-leg heading move penalty?

To me, it seems easier just to play that it costs a leg every time the mast is flipped over to tilt in the downwind direction. One rule - easy to remember. That would mean that you can pivot into the luff and spend that leg luffing; then you must come out on the next leg. If you come out on the same side of the wind, you just pivot and move out, since it requires no mast flip.

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Ryan Keane
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The Regatta rules are such that you need to decide on how your group is going to interpret them and agree to play that way. Plus there's 2 versions. So I'm not going to argue what is the "official" interpretation of the rules, and just explain how we play it.

1. You decide to pivot (or not pivot) at the beginning of each leg. You must then move the full amount of spaces for that leg based on the wind direction before you can pivot again for the next leg. If you are not going to be able to move the full amount because a ship/island will be in the way, you are not allowed to move in the direction and must choose a different pivot angle.

2. We limit the allowed pivot to 135, but it doesn't really matter if you allow a full 180. You must spend a leg penalty (in addition to the 1 leg spent for the pivot/movement) if you cross the wind. We count the leg penalty on both on jibing/tacking. We don't use the "heading move" terminology. As Cad said, if you have to change the tilt of your mast, it's a 1 leg penalty. Intentional luff is the one exception to this (if you allow it - see below).

3. The leg penalty only applies after spending the leg for the pivot/movement. So if you have 1 leg for the turn, you may still cross the wind and move and ignore the penalty. If you have 2 legs for the turn, crossing the wind and moving on your first move spends both legs, but you can move with your first leg and cross the wind and move for your second leg, ignoring the penalty. This avoids having to plan out all your legs in advance before moving your first leg.

4. Intentional luff is a 2 leg cost. 1 leg for the pivot into luff and 0 movement, 1 leg penalty for "being stuck in luff" (as you don't have to change the tilt of your mast at this point). But we find it more interesting (and less rules-problematic) to not allow intentional luffs. You can take as many leg penalties as you want crossing the wind on your pivot, but each pivot must end in a non-luffing direction and result in positive movement (unless your are completely blocked from all possible movements, in which case you must luff).

5. A boat that ends up luffing at the start of the round because of wind change loses 1 leg from the number rolled. If it then has 0 legs, it is allowed to pivot with no movement.
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David Snyder
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Ryan Keane wrote:
1. You decide to pivot (or not pivot) at the beginning of each leg. You must then move the full amount of spaces for that leg based on the wind direction before you can pivot again for the next leg. If you are not going to be able to move the full amount because a ship/island will be in the way, you are not allowed to move in the direction and must choose a different pivot angle.


Nice. I like this one.

Ryan Keane wrote:

3. The leg penalty only applies after spending the leg for the pivot/movement. So if you have 1 leg for the turn, you may still cross the wind and move and ignore the penalty. If you have 2 legs for the turn, crossing the wind and moving on your first move spends both legs, but you can move with your first leg and cross the wind and move for your second leg, ignoring the penalty. This avoids having to plan out all your legs in advance before moving your first leg.


I don't quite follow you on this one. My AH rules state under "Heading moves - each heading move equals one leg." I have taken that to mean if you tack/jibe, that is one full leg. If there is only one leg for that turn, then that is all you get to do. In fact, I also play that if your boat didn't move forward at all during the leg, you cannot take a Puff bonus on that leg.

Ryan Keane wrote:

5. A boat that ends up luffing at the start of the round because of wind change loses 1 leg from the number rolled. If it then has 0 legs, it is allowed to pivot with no movement.


Getting stuck in a luff - I agree, lose one leg for being stuck. However, we play that it takes a second heading move to get out of the luff. And, since a heading move equals one leg, that means you effectively lose 2 legs without movement (and no puff bonus). You would be able to begin moving again on the 3rd leg. If there is only a 1 leg turn, we give that player a marker "In Irons" to indicate he finished losing a leg due to luff (since the yacht is still pointing directly into the wind). On his second turn (assuming the wind hasn't changed) he would spend his first leg making a heading move. Any following legs he could move normally.

My two cents - hope for continued dialog. I think once the ambiguities are resolved, Regatta is actually a fun light race game.

 
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Ryan Keane
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dsnyder wrote:

Ryan Keane wrote:

3. The leg penalty only applies after spending the leg for the pivot/movement. So if you have 1 leg for the turn, you may still cross the wind and move and ignore the penalty. If you have 2 legs for the turn, crossing the wind and moving on your first move spends both legs, but you can move with your first leg and cross the wind and move for your second leg, ignoring the penalty. This avoids having to plan out all your legs in advance before moving your first leg.


I don't quite follow you on this one. My AH rules state under "Heading moves - each heading move equals one leg." I have taken that to mean if you tack/jibe, that is one full leg. If there is only one leg for that turn, then that is all you get to do. In fact, I also play that if your boat didn't move forward at all during the leg, you cannot take a Puff bonus on that leg.



The way we play is not an attempt to be the closest interpretation of the rules, but rather to be the way that we think is the most fun. By having the cross-wind 1 leg penalty only apply after spending 1 leg to tack/jibe and move, this avoids a player getting stuck on 1 leg turns. It's also tactically more interesting - ideally you want to end each turn on a tack/jibe leg to avoid having to pay the penalty. Without this, it means that the number of legs rolled each turn is pretty meaningless - whether you roll 1, 2, or 3, it doesn't affect what you were planning to do for the next 10 or 20 consecutive legs. Does that make sense?
 
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David Snyder
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I think I understand now - no problem with a house rule - that helps me to figure out what you are saying. Let me try to summarize and you let me know if I have it right...

You can tack/jibe and move on a leg for the cost of a single leg if it is the last leg of your turn. Otherwise, you pay a one leg penalty for the tack. This also means only on a 3 leg turn could you tack/move (then one leg penalty) and tack/move a second time. Or, are you only ever allowed a single tack/jibe on a turn?

Either way, I am intrigued and will give it a try.

I would comment that I think the # of legs on a turns is still meaningful with standard rules - more legs in a turn is more maneuvering options because you only have to be concerned with right-of-way at the end of your last leg. Additionally, especially if you are leading, you want to move as far as possible with the given wind direction. That being said, I do like that your rule does add more meaning to number of turns per leg.

Thanks for the clarity.
 
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Ryan Keane
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dsnyder wrote:
I think I understand now - no problem with a house rule - that helps me to figure out what you are saying. Let me try to summarize and you let me know if I have it right...

You can tack/jibe and move on a leg for the cost of a single leg if it is the last leg of your turn. Otherwise, you pay a one leg penalty for the tack. This also means only on a 3 leg turn could you tack/move (then one leg penalty) and tack/move a second time. Or, are you only ever allowed a single tack/jibe on a turn?

Either way, I am intrigued and will give it a try.

I would comment that I think the # of legs on a turns is still meaningful with standard rules - more legs in a turn is more maneuvering options because you only have to be concerned with right-of-way at the end of your last leg. Additionally, especially if you are leading, you want to move as far as possible with the given wind direction. That being said, I do like that your rule does add more meaning to number of turns per leg.

Thanks for the clarity.


Exactly correct. And yes, we allow that you can tack/jibe twice on a 3 leg turn, getting to move twice.

We don't play with right-of-way rules, mainly just because I haven't bothered to teach them (none of us are really sailors). I don't really know if the right-of-way rules make it more interesting tactically or less. Do you like them?
 
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