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Labyrinth: The War on Terror, 2001 – ?» Forums » Rules

Subject: Questions about Regime Change markers rss

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Lam Chungwah
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I am little bit confused about “Regime Change” markers. There are some questions as follows:

Q1: As the Rule 5.2.9, we know that players flip any green Regime Change markers to tan after dealing new card hands. But how about tan Regime Change markers? Do they also flip after dealing card phase of next turn?

Q2: The Rule 4.8.2: After dealing new card hands, flip any green Regime Change markers to tan and REMOVE them from on top of the troop cubes. It is the confusing point. Should we flip the green markers to the tan and remove them out of the map? What does the “Remove” mean? We know that there is a way to remove Regime Change marker from a country when the Governance of the country shifts to either Good or Islamist Rule. The tutorial example of 2 –player showed that the players had just flipped the green without removed the tan. According to the first statement of this question, is it the second way for us to remove Regime Change markers?

Q3: How can we prevent Islamist victory via green Regime Change markers? Why the tan Regime Change markers cannot do that? The Rule 2.3 just says, “For this game-end calculation only, count any Regime change placed this turn (green marker, 4.8.2) as Islamist Rule.”

Q4: What is the role of Green Regime Change marker? How is it different from Tan Regime Change marker?
 
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Jevon Heath
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I can answer the last two questions. The purpose of the different colors of Regime Change is to prevent a cheap US strategy of invading one or two high-value Islamist Regime countries right before the end of the game simply to deny them to the Jihadists. Since the game's about to end the lower hand size and greater vulnerability of being overstretched wouldn't matter, so it makes it a lot easier for the US to control over twice as many resources as the Jihadists.

With the two colors of Regime Change this strategy is no longer possible. Last-minute invasions will only result in green Regime Change markers, which still count for the Jihadists as controlled resources. I believe that's the whole purpose of this rule.
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Sam Butler
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Yes, as the previous poster stated -- the purpose is to mark whether it's the 1st turn of regime change or whehter it's later in the regime change, to avoid the cheap victory for the US without penalty. Other than the end-game condition, I don't believe there is any difference between the regime change marker side. If you know end-game won't trigger soon, you can just put the regime change marker on the tan side...but it is better to get in the habit of placing it on green then flipping at end of turn.

So, green regime change means regime change occurred this turn. Tan regime change means regime change occurred on a previous turn...could be more than 1 turn ago, though. Keep the marker on the tan side, do not flip it again.

Regime change markers only get removed by event on a card, or by the country going to either Good governance or Islamist Rule.
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Lam Chungwah
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butsam wrote:

Regime change markers only get removed by event on a card, or by the country going to either Good governance or Islamist Rule.


Thanks for your answer.

As we know, regime change markers only get removed by event on a card, or by the country going to either Good governance or Islamist Rule, so why the rule 4.8.2 mentioned that players flip any green Regime Change markers to tan and REMOVE them from on top of the troop cubes. Does “…REMOVE them from on top of the troop cubes” make a mistake?
 
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Joel Toppen
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Quote:
Q1: As the Rule 5.2.9, we know that players flip any green Regime Change markers to tan after dealing new card hands. But how about tan Regime Change markers? Do they also flip after dealing card phase of next turn?


They stay on their Tan Side until they're removed.

Quote:
Q2: The Rule 4.8.2: After dealing new card hands, flip any green Regime Change markers to tan and REMOVE them from on top of the troop cubes. It is the confusing point. Should we flip the green markers to the tan and remove them out of the map? What does the “Remove” mean? We know that there is a way to remove Regime Change marker from a country when the Governance of the country shifts to either Good or Islamist Rule. The tutorial example of 2 –player showed that the players had just flipped the green without removed the tan. According to the first statement of this question, is it the second way for us to remove Regime Change markers?


Regime Change markers are only removed when the country's governance shifts to Good.

Quote:
Q3: How can we prevent Islamist victory via green Regime Change markers? Why the tan Regime Change markers cannot do that? The Rule 2.3 just says, “For this game-end calculation only, count any Regime change placed this turn (green marker, 4.8.2) as Islamist Rule.”


Say the Jihadists have 3 Islamist Rule Resources from 1 country and the US has 4 Good Resources. If the game ends with this condition, the US loses. But what if the US performed a Regime Change on the very last card of the game? That would remove the Islamist Rule resources; a cheap way to win the game. We addressed this by making it so that green Regime Change countries still provide Resources until the Regime Change marker is flipped to tan.


Quote:
Q4: What is the role of Green Regime Change marker? How is it different from Tan Regime Change marker?


See above.

-Joel
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Volko Ruhnke
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Sugar. I don't know where that "remove them from on top of the troop cubes" came from. I didn't write it -- it may have been a proofreader's addition, but in any event it is superfluous.

Tan Regime Change markers affect Deployment (7.3.1) out of the country just like green Regime Change markers. When flipping a green Regime Change marker to tan, the marker should stay in the country (indeed, on the troops cubes).

Also, I see couple minor rules reference errors:

First, 4.8.2 contains a rules reference (7.3.1.1) to what is now simply an exception to 7.3.1 concerning Regime Change and troops. So the reference in 4.8.2 should be to 7.3.1 not 7.3.1.1.

Second, a Withdraw operation (7.3.5) is a way to get out from under the 7.3.1 restriction on troop deployment from Regime Change. So the 7.3.1 should include "(See also 7.3.5)" or some such.

Joel--I'm afraid these are errata.

--vfr

PS I should add, Lam, thank you for discovering that error in 4.8.2.
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Sam Butler
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joel_m_toppen wrote:
Regime Change markers are only removed when the country's governance shifts to Good.


Just making sure there isn't a late rule change/errata entry...Regime Change markers are also removed if the governance shifts to Islamist Rule as per 7.3.4.1, right? So Regime Change markers can only be on Poor/Fair countries...and are essentially permanent until the country goes to Good or Islamist Rule, or an event card specifically allowing removal of the Regime Change marker, right?

No idea why it says to remove from the top of the troops cube. The color of the marker only matters for end-game resource count of regime changes placed this turn, no other role--as Joel and Volko have indicated.
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Volko Ruhnke
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Sam--Yes, all correct. There is no late rules change.

There is now simply an erratum: 4.8.2 should not say "and remove them from on top of the troop cubes".

Congrats to Lam Chungwah (cchopman).

Darn it.

--vfr
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Lam Chungwah
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Volko, thanks for your reply.

According to your answers of above, the definition of “Regime Change marker” may become more clearly.

“Labyrinth” is a great game. Many CDG fans in Taiwan (also me) are looking forward to this game.

Lam
 
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Volko Ruhnke
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Lam -- Thanks for your support! I hope that the game does not disappoint. Best regards, Volko
 
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Kellen Kooistra
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I may be simply dense, but I don't see in the rules where it says that green regime change markers count as islamist rule countries for scoring at the end of the game. That seems obvious from the note on 4.8.2, but where does it say that explicitly? Maybe this should be mentioned in 4.8.2 as the rule as written makes it seem like the color change effects whether troops can be moved out of the country.
 
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Volko Ruhnke
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Hi Kellen!

See 2.3. This rule ("End of Game Victory") is the only effect of green RC markers, so that is where it's covered.

The note that you referred to contains a cross reference from 4.8.2 to 2.3 and further explains the rationale and use of green RC markers. The note, just below the 4.8.2 "Regime Change Markers" rule and just above the picture of tan and green RC markers, begins with the text "Via 2.3".

The 4.8.2 rule as written has an erratum, which we have included with every production copy of the game: 4.8.2 Delete "and remove them from on top of the troop cubes." I don't know where that text came from, but I certainly did not write or intend it. This erratum was the source and outcome of the above thread.

Hope that helps! -- Regards, Volko
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Kellen Kooistra
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That's what I get for not reading the rules carefully before posting. Thanks for pointing out where the rule was stated. All in all, I thought the rule book was written in a very clear manner and the game is a lot of fun.
 
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