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Subject: Anyone else remember when this site was about the GAMES? rss

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Greig
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Call me old fashioned, but I liked the site a great deal better when boardgames were actually discussed. And I do realize that there is still a great deal of excellent information being posted, but do we really need all of the extra drivel?

During my first year of lurking/participating the only controversy we had was the U.S. election. I didn't care too much being Canadian but it was fun to watch the debates between fellow Geeks. Now it seems like every second listing whether it be a forum entry or Geeklist is about putting down someone or something and not about the games that have brought us to the site. I don't want my hobby (addiction) to be superceded by things such as Shills, homophobia, moderators, BSW relationships, religion and so on.

It's my choice. I can read or I can move on. Sad thing is that six months ago I read every Geeklist and every Journal entry. Now I read about one in four forum entries and even less Geeklists. Even then I am just browsing and not really taking in what's being written.

--------------------

My birthday's coming up in about a month and I'll be looking to get some new games.

Of the ones in print:

Princes of Florence (thanks to Linnaeus for demonstrating the elegence of the game and consistently beating me)
Power Grid (An economic game I have started to do well with on BSW, so much going on and yet not too chaotic)
Amun Re (Gola, the people at Rio Grande Games should send you some money if I get this one as your Session Report sold me. Fawkes, your review solidified it for me, you should get some coin too)
Carolus Magnus (well thought of by my Geekbuddies and a precursor -of sorts- to another Colvini design El Grande)

OOP:
Ra (Love it on BSW)
El Grande (Too many good things are said about this. My only concern is I didn't have much luck with Trias another area control game)
Age of Steam (I know I'll suck at it, but it reads sooooooo well!)
Through the Desert (Mr. Knizia you make good cookies... ummm, games)

If anyone has any thoughts or recommendations read my wishlist and collection.

Anyway, that's it for me. The next time you post remember why you first came to the site, whether it was to learn about a game, learn about the hobby, to buy a game from the Marketplace or have a game of T&E... enjoy it for what it's worth.
 
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Jim Pulles
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I remember.

I'm not sure if I really care if fellow geeks want to use these Forums for their rants... I can easily ignore them. I am concerned about some of the negativism that has started to crop up in Geek Lists and Game Comments. What sort of picture is it giving to the casual visitor to boardgamegeek.com?

We are here to promote our hobby to the uninformed public. We have to show that we are above a 'grade school' mentality. A negative review is OK as long as reasons are given... it's quite something else to just add a comment and say "This game sucked!!!" That shows real class.

Constructive criticism is a good thing when taken in context, but unexplained negative comments do not place some of the registered BGG members in a good light. Come on... we want people to keep coming back, play games and have fun. I don't think that the negative attitude is helping.



As to your game list... I own every one of the games you listed and I'd be hard pressed to make a decision for you, but here are my comments anyway:

Power Grid - Great game, scales well for up to 6 players (if playing with 6 is important). My only complaint is that the bits are too fiddly.

Princes of Florence - One of the better games in the alea line (even though I prefer Traders of Genoa)

Carolus Magnius - I am a Leo Colovini fan. This game can be played with two or four players (as teams) and is OK; where it really shines is with three. This is one of the best three-player games you can buy.

Amun-Re - Well liked at our Club, but I find it a little dry, with no real 'fun' factor. A Knizia 'near miss' for me. I'll still play, but it's not a fave.

Ra - Classic Knizia, if you can find it. If you don't mind a reduced tile mix and the removal of disasters, consider buying Razzia.

Age of Steam - One game that I just don't get. It feels like it plays itself... and you just go through the motions. If you want a Wallace train game, buy Volldampf or Lancashire Railways instead, much cleaner and simpler designs.

El Grande - The game that turned me on to the world of Euro-gaming. However, after playing with the König & Intrigant expansion, I doubt that I'd ever play the basic game again (except with a newbie).

Durch die Wüste - An abstract Knizia title that leaves a lot of its origins to the game of Go. We played it a lot when it was new, but it hasn't seen much play lately.


A few additional suggestions if you can't make up your mind: Wallenstein, Reef Encounter, Medina, or Mexica.
 
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Luca Iennaco
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The four games you list as "OOP" are going to be reprinted quite soon (I'm not sure if you know and that's the reason to list them, or luckily you choose "soon-no-more-in-OOP-status games ).

Have fun!
 
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Ava Jarvis
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Belash wrote:
Call me old fashioned, but I liked the site a great deal better when boardgames were actually discussed. And I do realize that there is still a great deal of excellent information being posted, but do we really need all of the extra drivel?


I use the Journals, occaisonally a bit too much, but I regret the day they were introduced. Social sites are much harder to manage, and eat up your time if you get too involved. Some of the best 'Geeks on the site don't get involved, and time was I took that route too.

Fortunately you can arrange it so that you don't see any Geeklists or Forum entries. You can subscribe to topics you're interested in, as well as to Games you're interested in. If you keep to the top tabs, that's the most important content.

As for games...

Power Grid is lovely. Ra is up for a reprint by Uberplay. El Grande makes good trading fodder if you don't like it. Through the Desert is in print again from Fantasy Flight, candy camels and all. caravan

From your want list...

- Acquire: out of print, but many places still have copies. Great game, good trading fodder, beautiful reproduction by Avalon Hill. You may regret it if you don't get it in a few months.

- Citadels: Get a game started at http://ciudadelas.frenopatico.net/ to see if you would like it or not. If you do, it probably means you'll be fond of bluffing games; poker players tend to like Citadels.

- Go: Go to http://kgs.kiseido.com/ and try some 9x9 (or whatever is the smallest board) games with nice people. If you like it, visit Chinatown and buy a decent set, or even just a little cheap magnetic set for travel. (Often the magnetic sets only go up to 13 or 15 rather than a 19x19 grid, but that's probably a good thing.)

- Pirate's Cove/Piratenbucht: Wonderful production by Days of Wonder. I mean it. Very chaotic game; you need to be aggressive, but do it in fun. I traded my copy away, but may eventually get it again when I find a gaming group that this would fit in.

- Torres. Up for a reprint, with probably a more grim theme than the former whimsical one (but I could be wrong). Great components (probably even in the reprint; those pieces need to be sturdy and sit well) nontheless, and a nice abstract. Fawkes' tutorial is really good. I can't remember where it is though; perhaps in his journal somewhere.

- Traumfabrik: Up for a reprint in the states. I'm curious to see whether they'll use more modern movies or not. I may get it again just for that.

You may want to eventually look into

- Alhambra Expansions: largely language independent components even if you get the German version, and there are translations on the 'Geek if need be

- Bang! High Noon and Dodge City, as you like Bang! a lot and this will add new variety. Plus they're very cheap, even new.

- Consider Carcasonne: the City. It's got the meat that the original didn't (without expansions anyways), and some of the neat elements from the H&G, though in a slightly different form. And great wooden walls and turrets, along with a novel way of using them for scoring. The tile mix seems to prevent the "Huge Farm" (well, huge provinces in this game) problem, as there are a lot of roads and markets for blocking.

- Reef Encounter if you can find it at a price you'll swallow. It's great when you need a change from T&E---although Acquire will get you that, too. Reef Encounter is tightly integrated with its theme (T&E is also, but people who haven't read Campbell's essays about the river valley and civilization will miss out on the theme).

- Ticket to Ride: Europe, coming up in a few months (or so). More meat than TtR it sounds like.

- You may want to try some of the GIPF series (I wouldn't suggest GIPF until you've played the other games). I'd suggest starting with YINSH and then moving onto either DVONN or ZERTZ if you like it.

- You may want to try Hive. It's a different experience from chess, and games are over very, very quickly. There's a Java version with an AI at http://www.hivemania.com . (You can tell when you're beating it because it's very reluctant to make the next move. )

 
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Chris Keller
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Quote:
Call me old fashioned, but I liked the site a great deal better when boardgames were actually discussed. And I do realize that there is still a great deal of excellent information being posted, but do we really need all of the extra drivel?

During my first year of lurking/participating the only controversy we had was the U.S. election. I didn't care too much being Canadian but it was fun to watch the debates between fellow Geeks. Now it seems like every second listing whether it be a forum entry or Geeklist is about putting down someone or something and not about the games that have brought us to the site. I don't want my hobby (addiction) to be superceded by things such as Shills, homophobia, moderators, BSW relationships, religion and so on.

It's my choice. I can read or I can move on. Sad thing is that six months ago I read every Geeklist and every Journal entry. Now I read about one in four forum entries and even less Geeklists. Even then I am just browsing and not really taking in what's being written.


Yes, unfortunately, this is what you have when you select (basically) unfettered comments in an open forum and display it for any and all to see and comment on --- it's the 15-minutes of fame repeated over & over.

It's also necessary when you want to "break-out" of the mold to promote other things, as BGG is doing.

My "respect" for the Site has dropped percipitously as I see things like Descriptions for games replaced by personal comments about the game, wrong information about games, many misspellings, etc.

It's gotten to the point where I can not "trust" the information I find here.
 
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Ava Jarvis
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Smorgy wrote:

It's gotten to the point where I can not "trust" the information I find here.


Find some Geek Buddies whose opinions you do trust, and use the GeekBuddy analyzer link to view their comments on a game. You can also view new articles/comments/lists by your Geek Buddies as well. Nice way to do filtering.

I also think that for the most part, individual game pages are okay (they are, after all, much less visible than the forums/journals, so stay clean for the most part. And you can filter out the idiots without seeing their posts shake).

I think not trusting the information on the site is going a bit far. There's a lot of things still being reliably posted, and a lot of thoughtful people still here. There are game aids being uploaded, images being posted, questions being reliably asked (just look on the Blue Moon page) and pondered over maturely, and so on.

The site is far from unusable.
 
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Tom "Snicker Daddy" Pancoast
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Belash wrote:

Princes of Florence (thanks to Linnaeus for demonstrating the elegance of the game and consistently beating me)
Power Grid (An economic game I have started to do well with on BSW, so much going on and yet not too chaotic)
Amun Re (Gola, the people at Rio Grande Games should send you some money if I get this one as your Session Report sold me. Fawkes, your review solidified it for me, you should get some coin too)
Carolus Magnus (well thought of by my Geekbuddies and a precursor -of sorts- to another Colvini design El Grande)


PoF: One of my favorites. You have already played it, so I'm not sure what to add.
Power Grid: Just played it for the first time recently, and picked up a copy for myself. Someone else was handling all the fiddley bits, so it may not go as smoothly as when we play it in our group, but its clearly a great game.
Amun Re: Learned this the same day as Power Grid (Thanks again David) and really enjoyed it too. I was too busy exploring all the approaches you can take to notice if the game was dry. Now that I have played it, I really need to go back and read Gola's report! laugh
Carolus Magnus: Sorry. I haven't tried it. What does El Grande have to do with Colovini, though? He didn't do El Grande.

Belash wrote:

OOP:
Ra (Love it on BSW)
El Grande (Too many good things are said about this. My only concern is I didn't have much luck with Trias another area control game)
Age of Steam (I know I'll suck at it, but it reads sooooooo well!)
Through the Desert (Mr. Knizia you make good cookies... ummm, games)

RA: I am really looking forward to the reprint.
El Grande: My first game of this left a pretty bad impression. My second game was much better. My opinion of the game rocketed all the way up to "Eh...". I'm curious how the others in my group would respond to it, but so far I am the only one to try it.
Age of Steam: I haven't tried it, but it frankly sounds a little intimidating. I hope to be getting another Wallace game soon, so maybe if I love that, I will be more open to this. I have some friends who are train gamers, so I may get a chance to try it.
TtD or DdW: One of my absolute favorites! It scales so well, and has a massive depth to simplicity ratio. Ok maybe not massive, but it really fits the sweet spot for me. I also find it to be tense without being overwhelming, and it plays quickly too.
 
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Brett Myers
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BilboAtBagEnd wrote:
- Traumfabrik: Up for a reprint in the states. I'm curious to see whether they'll use more modern movies or not. I may get it again just for that.


I'd heard that they were going the parody/altered names route, but I may be mistaken. I've seen the original going in the low $30s on ebay, lately. This is one of my top ten games.

Quote:
- Consider Carcasonne: the City. It's got the meat that the original didn't (without expansions anyways), and some of the neat elements from the H&G, though in a slightly different form. And great wooden walls and turrets, along with a novel way of using them for scoring. The tile mix seems to prevent the "Huge Farm" (well, huge provinces in this game) problem, as there are a lot of roads and markets for blocking.


This is really good, and moving up on my want list.

Quote:
- Reef Encounter if you can find it at a price you'll swallow. It's great when you need a change from T&E---although Acquire will get you that, too. Reef Encounter is tightly integrated with its theme (T&E is also, but people who haven't read Campbell's essays about the river valley and civilization will miss out on the theme).


I was lucky enough to get this when it first hit the US. I read an interview/blurb with Breese about how he got the idea for this after watching a nature documentary (Blue Planet?) and I had to get it. That's how one of my own designs was inspired, and I wanted to see what someone else did with the subject matter. I should claim game designer as a second job, so I can write these games off on my taxes as business expenses. Research, you know.
 
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David K
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I too have noticed marked difference in the quality of posts on BGG. A lot more negativity and out-right flaming. Let's hope it dies down and this site, and the people who frequent it, go back to doing what they do best: talking about boardgames!

-V
 
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Thomas Eastside, Esq.
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Yeah, the site has definitely changed a bit in tone. I think I started noticing it most during the whole "this should be a journal vs. geeklist" argument. Now, I'm seeing lots of craziness. Which, at times, can be fun, but seems to drown out the true purpose of the site.
 
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Daniel Szukalow
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Princes of Florence - you are always faced with wanting to do more than the game allows you to do which, for me, makes for a great game.

Power Grid - it's funny because in response to your post I posted a forum asking for input on this one because I was faced with a choice of either taking this or Samurai in a recent trade list. I was wanting Samurai but because of the input from other geeks (reason why I am responding to your post - returning the favour..so to speak) I changed my mind and am now getting this game. I believe (a response to your forum comments) that if we individually stick to games then we will talk about games. It all starts with "you". If someone posts a forum about shills, homophobia, moderators, BSW relationships, religion and so on and no one responds with comments then that stuff will go away. This is still a great site and will go back to being what initially grabbed your interest if "you" (and I mean everyone) decides that the reason they are here is for games.

Amun Re - you need 4 or 5 players for this one to really shine. Great auction mechanic which is very tense in the New Kingdom. Multiple ways to score points ie. through pyramids, sets of pyramids, most pyramids, temples and action cards. There is a lot going on in this game. Love it!

I am challenged by your post - I have stayed away from the "fluff" and will continue to do so - strictly games for me. Great forum btw - it should be pinned.
 
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| Scott Kinzie |
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Volstag wrote:
I too have noticed marked difference in the quality of posts on BGG. A lot more negativity and out-right flaming. Let's hope it dies down and this site, and the people who frequent it, go back to doing what they do best: talking about boardgames!-V


I have to agree. When the site introduced journals, it seemed that people still posted relevant articles at each game entry and then less-relevant things and off-topic things in their journals. Since I'm primarily interested researching games before I buy them, I found that I could safely ignore most of the journal entries; i.e. I wasn't missing important information ABOUT GAMES. Now that the forums have started people are posting articles here that really belong on the game entry page (such as, "Here's a 2-player variant of X" or "How do you interpret this rule"). Now, I feel that I can no longer ignore the forum entries, but am quite frankly sickened by the amount of negativity and the mean-spirited attitudes that some have expressed. It's simply not fun to come here anymore.

Honestly, I don't mind off-topic posts, nor do I wish to censor them, I just wish I didn't have to wad through all the politics, anti-everything, nit-picking, homophobic, sexist, etc., etc., etc., ARRGGGH! stuff that DOESN'T RELATE TO GAMES. [Bless all of you that DO clearly label your off-topic posts!!!]

I don't want to leave the BGG; I really appreciate the GAME-RELATED opinions and information.... but the political, religious, and personal vandetta flame-wars are really wearing thin.

So, here are my questions to all the experienced, good-natured, nice, quiet, patient, TOLERANT folks out there: Is this just a "phase" these kinds of sites all go through? Will it die down soon? Do I just give it time -- ride it out? Or is the simple truth that this site has become a place where you have to read countless non-relevant articles to find a few nuggets of gold hidden here and there? [Hmm... sounds like a new game: Find the BGG Golden Articles, but look out for those flame-wars! Will you survive?]
 
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Robert Wesley
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"there's GAMES here?" laugh
 
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Brett Myers
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GROGnads wrote:
"there's GAMES here?" laugh


holy frap he's back! Where you been? Folks were getting worried.
 
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Ava Jarvis
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DenverWolf wrote:

So, here are my questions to all the experienced, good-natured, nice, quiet, patient, TOLERANT folks out there: Is this just a "phase" these kinds of sites all go through? Will it die down soon? Do I just give it time -- ride it out?


Moderation would be the key to all that. You need plenty of moderators, and they need plenty of dedication, good judgement, and thick skins. But there are other things to remember:

- the game pages contain entirely relevant information, and yes, people still use them and you can get updates through them. Geeklists that are rated highly appear on a game page as well.

- there are more relevant posts in the appropriate sections of the forum than not; you can browse them through the Forums link that way. Don't use the Journals tab until Aldie has had time to add more filtering to it.

- flame-wars are usually easily detectable and you can avoid them. That they happen at all is certainly not preferable, and you need moderation to deal with that, but it's not the end of the world nor the end of the site. Avoid the more off-topic areas.

- you can determine geek buddies from the on-topic areas, and from that you have access, through the geek buddy page, of some of their recent posts and things. (Although it would be nice to have more history on that page. )

- you can also just used the top tabs of information, because people still file on-topic session reports, reviews, images, files, etc., and that is unlikely to change

- the majority of 'Geeks are NOT idiots. There are many, many who stay uninvolved in the flame wars. They are not difficult to find.

The world isn't perfect and it isn't fair, but Aldie and Derk do manage to find solutions (witness ratings being used successfully for filtering the better images and geeklists to a game's main page).

Solutions can always be found, whether by ourselves or by Aldie and Derk, bless them.
 
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Robert Cannon
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Belash wrote:
Call me old fashioned, but I liked the site a great deal better when boardgames were actually discussed. And I do realize that there is still a great deal of excellent information being posted, but do we really need all of the extra drivel?


I agree, BGG is sliding. Has it "Jumped the Shark?". It's a phenomanal resource for game information, but the Forums have opened the door for lots of unwanted stuff. I can see why Aldie might want to integrate the forum software into BGG and get lots of features that he doesn't have to work so hard to maintain, but I think it has cost the site alot. Is this the fate of any internet resource? Once it gets to a certain size, the trash comes in?
 
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| Scott Kinzie |
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BilboAtBagEnd:

Thanks for the suggestions and reassurance!
 
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Ava Jarvis
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DenverWolf wrote:
BilboAtBagEnd:
Thanks for the suggestions and reassurance!


No problems; I know what it feels like to watch a site take on a social aspect it's never had before.

I have also seen moderation work without destroying a forum, and Aldie and Derk have the same level-headed qualities as the person who lead that forum. And that forum required much more heavy-handed, constant work than BGG is ever likely to see.

I'm not worried. Whether others worry is entirely up to them. Life is too short.
 
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I love that this thread has been moved to the "Chit Chat" part of the forum for "non-gaming" discussions.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and recommendations. I will take some time to read about new games offered and old ones elaborated on.
 
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Ava Jarvis
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It did take a strong detour off-topic.

Have fun game exploring! Love that new game smell.
 
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