Recommend
11 
 Thumb up
 Hide
57 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

7 Wonders» Forums » Rules

Subject: How to handle the timing of simulatneous commerce actions? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If I (p3) have a choice as to whether to get my stone from my right neighbor (p4) or my left neighbor (p2), but my left neighbor (p2) has the same choice of getting a resource from me (p3) or his left neighbor (p1), what are the rules on this type of timing? I could be in a situation where I'll only use p2's stone if p2 buys my (say....) wood. But he's waiting to see which way I go first. Assume everything else is fine and dandy (e.g. we both have enough coins to pay for what we need without having to rely on others paying us first, which shouldn't work anyways according to the rules)
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Fisk
United Kingdom
Stoke on Trent
Staffordshire
flag msg tools
Come on you Seagulls! Sami Hyppia's Blue & White army!
badge
That's weird. This bit used to mention Shire Games, and tell you all how wonderful we are. But it seems to have got deleted. Let's see what happens this time ....
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ackmondual wrote:
If I (p3) have a choice as to whether to get my stone from my right neighbor (p4) or my left neighbor (p2), but my left neighbor (p2) has the same choice of getting a resource from me (p3) or his left neighbor (p1), what are the rules on this type of timing? I could be in a situation where I'll only use p2's stone if p2 buys my (say....) wood. But he's waiting to see which way I go first. Assume everything else is fine and dandy (e.g. we both have enough coins to pay for what we need without having to rely on others paying us first, which shouldn't work anyways according to the rules)


Tricky one. I would say, if this situation came up and could not be resolved ...

If it was Age I or III, go in clockwise order, and if in Age II, go anti-clockwise.



N.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mik Svellov
Denmark
Copenhagen N
EU
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Both players should have made up their mind before they revealed the card.
Since they are obviously taking a 30m game far too seriously, they have forfeited their right to continue the game.

Let them sit there waiting for each other to go first, and let the remaining players continue their game!
34 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great Dane wrote:
Both players should have made up their mind before they revealed the card.
Since they are obviously taking a 30m game far too seriously, they have forfeited their right to continue the game.

Let them sit there waiting for each other to go first, and let the remaining players continue their game!


i must say i have to agree with Mik because the intend of the game is not to play as you describe it.

as Mik said, before you reveal your card you have to your decision in mind.

but nothing is against playing in clockwise order for example but it will be a little longer.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rich P
United Kingdom
Sheffield
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
I didn't know what to do with my UberBadge, so I left it as a GeekBadge.
badge
Planning...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Having a decision in mind is all well and good but I'd prefer if there was an official timing rule. The honour system just doesn't cut it for me. Similarly, what's the official timing rule on deciding what you're going to do with the card you've picked (play it, use it for your wonder or turn it into money)? Can I wait and see what my neighbours do and if so, who goes first?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
woodnoggin wrote:
Having a decision in mind is all well and good but I'd prefer if there was an official timing rule. The honour system just doesn't cut it for me. Similarly, what's the official timing rule on deciding what you're going to do with the card you've picked (play it, use it for your wonder or turn it into money)? Can I wait and see what my neighbours do and if so, who goes first?


i think we have to wait that Antoine answer then ! soblue
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antoine Bauza
France
Valence
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, most players can make it with the honour system, I hope (It's a none formal rule, I agree...)
If not, a verbal statement or a simultaneous gesture could do the work.
I think I don't enjoy playing a 7W game with such an adjustment but some people need it and I understand
I think it's better to be in a gaming mood and "accept to play the game"... It's very true for 7W and, again, I understand some people having trouble with that (but, it's only a game )
31 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lonnie H
United States
Everett
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For the ultra-competitive, you could devise a few cards that everyone has a sat of that they chose one to indicate their intention and place face down with their chosen 7 Wonder card.....build it, build a stage, sell it, build with stuff from the left, build with stuff from the right or build with stuff from both left and right......so there with 6-9 extra cards for each person, you could make people commit what their action is before revealing the two cards (one card from the game, and one intention card ~ user made).

Not for everyone but it may settle some arguments for the ultra-competitive.....but probably not, because the argument may be seen as part of the competition whistle
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antoine Bauza
France
Valence
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lonster wrote:
For the ultra-competitive, you could devise a few cards that everyone has a sat of that they chose one to indicate their intention and place face down with their chosen 7 Wonder card.....build it, build a stage, sell it, build with stuff from the left, build with stuff from the right or build with stuff from both left and right......so there with 6-9 extra cards for each person, you could make people commit what their action is before revealing the two cards (one card from the game, and one intention card ~ user made).

Not for everyone but it may settle some arguments for the ultra-competitive.....but probably not, because the argument may be seen as part of the competition whistle


Yes, 3 cards R4TG-like I think someone will come up with something for those ultra-competitive. But the game will be less "fluid" ("fluid" ? "fluent" ? I am note sure this is a correct word, my english is too bad, sorry)
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mik Svellov
Denmark
Copenhagen N
EU
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The ultra-competitive should simply realise that this isn't a game for them, and play something else. Or they would have to alter the official rules with their own house rules, if they cannot play the game the way it was intended.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antoine Bauza
France
Valence
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great Dane wrote:
The ultra-competitive should simply realise that this isn't a game for them, and play something else. Or they would have to alter the official rules with their own house rules, if they cannot play the game the way it was intended.


Well, it's important you play a game the way you like it
So I'm the first one to encourage the players to alter the official rules if they don't fit to them. Like I said, it's only a game
17 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rich P
United Kingdom
Sheffield
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
I didn't know what to do with my UberBadge, so I left it as a GeekBadge.
badge
Planning...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great Dane wrote:
The ultra-competitive should simply realise that this isn't a game for them, and play something else. Or they would have to alter the official rules with their own house rules, if they cannot play the game the way it was intended.


You don't have to be ultra-competitive to want good timing rules. Would you like to play Race for the Galaxy without role cards, where each player announces what they'd like to do at the start of each turn? That's an extreme example, since you're just choosing from 3 options in 7 Wonders, but the situation can arise where it's important to know who decides first.

Suppose I'm tying with my right-hand neighbour for military and it's the last pick of the age. If they choose to play a military card, they'll beat me and I'll lose points. So maybe I should play a military card to make sure that doesn't happen. But I'd really like to build a stage of my wonder. Under the current rules, what's to stop me from picking a military card, waiting until I see what my opponent has decided and then making my decision? If he plays a military card, I can do the same to maintain parity. If he picks another card, I can use my card to build a stage of my wonder, safe in the knowledge that he's not going to beat me in the military race.

If I'm playing by the honour system, I should make my decision before anyone reveals cards, but I can see a situation where the game is moving so fast that a player hasn't had time to formalise that decision in their mind before their neighbour's card is revealed. At that point, it's really difficult to be honest about what your decision "would have been". I can see your point about ultra-competitive players taking this too seriously, and maybe it sounds like I'm one of those sorts of players. I'm not, I'll play using the honour system and I'm sure that'll be fine most of the time. I was just surprised that there wasn't a rule already.

I don't think anyone would want role cards for choosing between build/wonder/coins outside of a tournament but I'd like to be able to avoid potential arguments or misunderstandings. Perhaps you could have a start player marker, which is passed round along with the cards. As Nick suggests above, decisions, where required, could be made in clockwise order from that turn's start player (anti-clockwise in the second age). Although this would undoubtedly slow the game down, which is undesirable outside of a tournament setting.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Antoine Bauza
France
Valence
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
First player'a market is an economic solution, indeed
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cookingham
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wouldn't it be easier to have to the players put their chosen face down card where they intend to play it?

Everyone would then reveal at the same time (or not.. in the case of building a stage of their Wonder).

The first player market solution could slow down play as each player is looking to the player before them to play before they decide.

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Cookingham
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ackmondual wrote:
I could be in a situation where I'll only use p2's stone if p2 buys my (say....) wood.


Why wouldn't you just negotiate that at the time of play?

As you both play cards at the same time-- you could offer to buy his stone instead of from that other guy... but only if he buys your wood.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yeh Fang
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Give each player three small cups/bowls, labeled left, right, and center that they can use to cover money.

They have to allocate their money at the same time they pick their cards. Left goes to left player, right goes to right player, and center they keep for themselves. This should prevent takebacks for players who need it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michele Nesci
Italy
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Because negotiating tends to escalate play time a LOT. And a short playing time is a strong point of this game. Moreover, the other players are likely not involved in similar issues, so that would create downtime for them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lukasz Sobczyk
Poland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Can you buy resources from the card just played by your neighbour?

Suppose i have west market, i wanted to buy stone from my right neighbour, but the player to my left got stone this turn so i'd like to change my initial choice. Is it legal, illegal or unspecified under official ruleset?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
z3phyr wrote:
Can you buy resources from the card just played by your neighbour?

Suppose i have west market, i wanted to buy stone from my right neighbour, but the player to my left got stone this turn so i'd like to change my initial choice. Is it legal, illegal or unspecified under official ruleset?


no you cannot use those ressources because you play simultaneously, the ressources of your neighbour will only be available next turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stefano Bastianelli
United States
Pittsford
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The rules says that the players resolve the actions at the same time. I think in the manual was a rule about it. Am I wrong?

You cannot use the coin that you get in this turn with the trading.
Every coins you get this turn is available in the next turn.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Madazam wrote:
You cannot use the coin that you get in this turn with the trading.
Every coins you get this turn is available in the next turn.


That's true, but the initial question stated that both players already had enough coins to buy at the start of their turns.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stefano Bastianelli
United States
Pittsford
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oops, I misunderstood.

But aren't the resources available for all players?

I mean if I have a card that produces a stone and I use it, my left and right neighbours can use it giving 2 coins to me. Is it correct?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel
Netherlands
Den haag
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Madazam wrote:
Oops, I misunderstood.

But aren't the resources available for all players?

I mean if I have a card that produces a stone and I use it, my left and right neighbours can use it giving 2 coins to me. Is it correct?

That is correct
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Woodward
New Zealand
Hamilton
flag msg tools
a.k.a. The Shire
badge
Frenzy (Split Enz, 1979)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cookinjr wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to have to the players put their chosen face down card where they intend to play it?

Everyone would then reveal at the same time (or not.. in the case of building a stage of their Wonder).

The first player market solution could slow down play as each player is looking to the player before them to play before they decide.



I think your first suggestion is a good one. Although it might not always solve the problem. I might pretend to build a wonder stage, but then see you are going to do the same, so I change my mind and build the card instead.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Woodward
New Zealand
Hamilton
flag msg tools
a.k.a. The Shire
badge
Frenzy (Split Enz, 1979)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ackmondual wrote:
If I (p3) have a choice as to whether to get my stone from my right neighbor (p4) or my left neighbor (p2), but my left neighbor (p2) has the same choice of getting a resource from me (p3) or his left neighbor (p1), what are the rules on this type of timing? I could be in a situation where I'll only use p2's stone if p2 buys my (say....) wood. But he's waiting to see which way I go first. Assume everything else is fine and dandy (e.g. we both have enough coins to pay for what we need without having to rely on others paying us first, which shouldn't work anyways according to the rules)


This is a great question. Who to purchase off can be an important decision in this game. This is one thing I don't like, it's like trying to figure out who you should attack in a multiplayer wargame (e.g. Cyclades), it can unbalance the game if you behave suboptimally.

In some ways it would be easier to say you have to preferentially purchase to the left-right-left in the 3 ages of the game.

As for preventing cheating of the simultaneous action selection system, this is another good question. I can't see a solution for this. Maybe you could say that a player is allowed to wait for the player before him (to his right-left-right) to do his action first (but not vice versa). This might slow the game down a little, occasionally, probably not much.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.