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Subject: KuK / WoP vs China rss

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Steve K
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While BGG is treating China as a simple revision of KuK/WoP, the changes are a bit more extensive than simply shifting the action from 12th Century Europe to China circa 200BC.

The AbuacusSpiele (German edition) instructions are full color in German, English, French and Italian.

The board is now two sided: one side for 3 players, one side for 5 players. With 4 players you can use either side. The difference is that the 3 player side has the same number of regions/monastery positions, but fewer road connections.

The monastery (now: house) majority is now scored only ONCE rather than twice, and each region is scored when the final monastery/house position in that region is filled. Only "incomplete" regions are scored at game end. There are a set of black wooden "scoring marker" discs to record which regions have been scored.

There is also a "fortifications" variant. Here, each player has a single square black wooden tile which can be positioned like houses to double the points when counting region and road scoring.

Card swapping rules seem unchanged.


 
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Rene Wiersma
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Re:KuK / WoP vs China
SteveK2 (#456653),

The monastery (now: house) majority is now scored only ONCE rather than twice, and each region is scored when the final monastery/house position in that region is filled. Only "incomplete" regions are scored at game end. There are a set of black wooden "scoring marker" discs to record which regions have been scored.

This I don't understand. Well, I understand, but I don't see how scoring "completed" regions immediately and "uncompleted" regions at the end of the game is different from just scoring each region once at the end of the game. Are you sure "completed" regions aren't scored again at the end of the game?

Anyway, I agree that "China" deserves its own entry, just like "Ticket to Ride" and "Ticket to Ride: Europe" are two different entries.
 
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Paul Kidd
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Re:KuK / WoP vs China
cnd_77 (#456691),

Also considering that Lowenherz and Domaine have separate entries.

My concern about the scoring of regions only once is that it will make advisors (or whatever they're called) more important, whereas I thought the game was pretty well balanced as it was.

I guess we'll have to wait and see if that's the only change.

Having different boards for different numbers of players sounds interesting.
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Shawn Low
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Re:KuK / WoP vs China
zaiga (#456684),

Well, the scoring happens when a region is COMPLETELY filled with houses. Play is stopped and points are scored. Then the scoring marker is place in that filled region to indicate that it has been scored.

Hope that clarifies things.
 
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Rene Wiersma
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Re:KuK / WoP vs China
shawn_low (#457576),

No, that doesn't clarify it for me. I understand what happens, but I don't understand why it happens.

What's the purpose of scoring a completed region right away, when all uncompleted regions are scored at the end of the game anyway? It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Or, are regions scored immediately when they are completed AND again at the end of the game? That would make sense because there would be an advantage to completing a region.
 
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Steve K
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Re:KuK / WoP vs China
zaiga (#457909),

I can't really say why they introduced the change of scoring regions, but they are now scored only once: either as they become filled, or (if never filled) at the end of the game.

And yes ... this change to only scoring cloisters once does change the balance between cloisters and advisors.

The "fortifications" option can also produce some significant point scores if you manage to place the "joker" under a cloister that contributes towards both a region and a connected road.
 
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Shawn Low
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Re:KuK / WoP vs China
zaiga (#457909),

I suspect that the reason why scoring of regions is done as regions are completely filled is to save 'bookkeeping' at the end of the game.

As you score regions that are filled, what's left to score at the end of the game are:

1) Uncompleted regions
2) Emperor visited regions (emissary majority)

It simply makes things less confusing at the end. Often, with games like Ticket to Ride and China, overly long score counting kinda deflates the fun of completing a game.


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Brent Ross
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Re:KuK / WoP vs China
shawn_low (#459629),

I suspect it's much simpler than that... after all, some of us prefer deferring the bookkeeping to the end of the game (considering the scoring process as anticipation, not deflation), rather than repeated disruptions in the flow of the game. And this doesn't make things simpler as far as the tallying goes... you need to track what's already been scored (not that that's hard... it's simply a complication over doing it all in one single sweep).

The realy reason, I expect, is that since the points have already been scored (and that's not going to change)... it simply makes sense to tally them up so that the players aren't independantly and repeatedly doing that while playing (to see who's ahead). In this way it reduces the mental overhead of playing the game (at the expense of a very small amount of complication and disruption).
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Sight Reader
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OzGamer wrote:
cnd_77 (#456691),
My concern about the scoring of regions only once is that it will make advisors (or whatever they're called) more important, whereas I thought the game was pretty well balanced as it was.


The new fortification rule greatly boosts the potential bonanza to be made in house and chain scoring. This makes it unnecessary to score houses twice for balance.

To make this work, I recommend that you change one China rule. On your first turn in an empty province, you can play one OR two houses -- just no advisors. The rules limit you to one house, but we found this leads to instant gridlock and a boring, advisor dominated game.

As an example, I won the last game we played on the strength of a fortress doubling a massive house and chain score in Frankreich. I did not score a SINGLE point from advisors. This caused everyone to underestimate me and eliminate each other, plus I used advisors and my lead in Frankreich to yank it out of everyone's network at the last second. Nevertheless, even with everything working perfectly in my favor, I only won by 4 points. Certainly not a strategy I'd recommend (I did it because they muscled me out of any other strategy) but it does show how well balanced the scoring methods are.

Oh, by the way, I have NO idea why they don't just score everything once at the end either.
 
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Carl Olson
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SteveK2 wrote:
zaiga (#457909),

I can't really say why they introduced the change of scoring regions, but they are now scored only once: either as they become filled, or (if never filled) at the end of the game.

And yes ... this change to only scoring cloisters once does change the balance between cloisters and advisors.

The "fortifications" option can also produce some significant point scores if you manage to place the "joker" under a cloister that contributes towards both a region and a connected road.


"Significant" is a severe understatement. If the one fortress happens to double both a 7-point road and a 7-point province, that one piece scores 14 all by itself. It's absurd, and doesn't "balance" out anything. The 7-point road should never happen, but sometimes a player either cannot block it, or chooses to help himself rather than mess with someone else.

If there are newbies in the game, fortifications are even more unbalancing, as in the example above. If there are no newbies in the game, it's easy to block advisors, and fortifications aren't needed. A player cannot lock up the advisors in a two provinces simultaneously. If that happens, and you aren't benefitting from that advisor score, it's not a game balance problem, but a player problem.

I like China (without fortifications). I don't understand why the changes were made, but it's another fun game.
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