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Sid Meier's Civilization: The Board Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Devote to the Arts - City Management - Culture Question rss

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Jon Hall
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I understand that ONE of the City Management options a player can select is "Devote to the Arts" - which essentially harvests culture tokens in/around the city (and any scouts, etc.)

What I'm confused about is the sub header under "Devote" that says "Spending Culture". It says that anytime during City Management a player can spend culture to advance the culture track.

My question: do I have to take the "Devote" action to spend the culture - or are they mutually exclusive? Is it possible to build a token (or building) or even harvest a resource AND spend the culture points?

thanks,
Hawaiiirish
 
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Christopher Scatliff
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As far as I'm aware, you can spend your culture points during the city management phase regardless of what actions your cities take.
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Daniel Hammond
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Since it says spend any time during city management you can spend culture whether or not any of your cities devote to the arts. You can get culture other ways (trade, combat, wonders and resource abilities) it just has to be spent during your city management phase.
 
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François Mahieu
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I thought one had to choose the "Devote to the Arts" action in order to spend his culture points.


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Jon Hall
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The way it's printed in the book, under the "devote" header certainly implies the need for devote to be selected. However, the phrase "any time during city management" belies that idea.

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François Mahieu
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I pretty much liked the idea of having to choose the "Devote to the arts" action in order to spend culture points. We'll probably keep on playing that way.


 
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Stoodster
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poifpoif wrote:
I pretty much liked the idea of having to choose the "Devote to the arts" action in order to spend culture points. We'll probably keep on playing that way.



This would make a culture victory much too difficult. I suggest playing the game as intended at least once before tweaking the rules.
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Matt Clementson
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stoodster wrote:
poifpoif wrote:
I pretty much liked the idea of having to choose the "Devote to the arts" action in order to spend culture points. We'll probably keep on playing that way.



This would make a culture victory much too difficult. I suggest playing the game as intended at least once before tweaking the rules.

The way it's written in the rules it's as though it's a sub-action of "Devote to the Arts", ie you can only do it if you devote to the arts. That's certainly the way we played it. I think this needs a clarification.
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Brian Brokaw
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stoodster wrote:
I suggest playing the game as intended at least once before tweaking the rules.

I believe that you can only spend culture if you select City Action (B) Devote to the Arts. I believe this to be intended because:

1. The "SPENDING CULTURE" rule section is ONLY included as a sub-header in the "B. Devote to the Arts" section of the rules.

2. The rulebook author regurgitated the "Scouts and Blockades" rules 3x times (once in EACH of the A. B. C. city action rules). This implies Scouts and Blockades applies in ALL city actions. Because "Spending Culture" is NOT regurgitated 3x times, it doesn't apply in all selections.

3. The sub-header "Producing Figures" only appears in action (A) "Produce a Figure, Unit, Building or Wonder". This sub-header is in the same font and indention as "Spending Culture", yet I think everyone would agree that you MUST selection Action (A) in order to use the "Producing Figures" rules.

It also seems logical to me. Take Action (A) to focus on building. Take Action (B) to focus on culture. Take Action (C) to focus on resources.

I think perhaps the wording on "Spending Culture" was mis-typed:
Quote:
At any point during their City Management Phase, a player may choose to spend some or all of their culture...

should become:
Quote:
At any point during this City Management Phase, a player may choose to spend some or all of their culture...

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Daniel Hammond
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I understand how it can be confusing, but to me the sentence speaks for itself. It is certainly just a reasonable argument that it was placed under "devote to the arts" section because that is the logical place to put it. If it were really restricted the author should have put:

Quote:
During their City Management Phase while a city is devoting itself to the arts, a player may choose to spend some or all of their culture...


As it is written you don't even need to wait until you take a city action, because once it is your turn and you are in City Management phase you are at the "Any point during their city management phase".
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Tim Kelly
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dlhammond wrote:
As it is written you don't even need to wait until you take a city action, because once it is your turn and you are in City Management phase you are at the "Any point during their city management phase".

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JH
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dlhammond wrote:
I understand how it can be confusing, but to me the sentence speaks for itself. It is certainly just a reasonable argument that it was placed under "devote to the arts" section because that is the logical place to put it. If it were really restricted the author should have put:

Quote:
During their City Management Phase while a city is devoting itself to the arts, a player may choose to spend some or all of their culture...


As it is written you don't even need to wait until you take a city action, because once it is your turn and you are in City Management phase you are at the "Any point during their city management phase".


Agreed here. The statement "at any point during their City Management Phase" is unconditional. The description of how culture is spent appears to be included under B. simply as part of a logical progression — you get Culture in this manner, and while we're on the subject here's how to spend it. As Daniel says, with the rule as written you are able to spend culture before taking or even declaring any city actions as long as you're in the right phase.
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Shannon L
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poifpoif wrote:
I pretty much liked the idea of having to choose the "Devote to the arts" action in order to spend culture points. We'll probably keep on playing that way.

:(


I've read your posts in a lot of the rules forum posts...I don't mean to be rude but you've got odd rule interpretations all over the place. TO be fair they are a bit ambiguous.
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François Mahieu
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Quote:
I've read your posts in a lot of the rules forum posts...I don't mean to be rude but you've got odd rule interpretations all over the place. TO be fair they are a bit ambiguous.


So? What's the purpose of your post if not being rude?

It's true I made a lot of shortcuts on these ones. But hopefully there are guys like me making mistakes so others can correct them and we can eventually all enjoy the game with clarified rules.


Oh. And don't worry for the "Devote to the arts" action. I always play as the rules state. (as soon as it's been clarified though)

And be kind with the French speaking guy writing in English too...
 
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Shannon L
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Your right, my apologies...
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Daniel Hammond
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Your right, your right, your left, right.
 
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David Culp
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dlhammond wrote:
I understand how it can be confusing, but to me the sentence speaks for itself. It is certainly just a reasonable argument that it was placed under "devote to the arts" section because that is the logical place to put it. If it were really restricted the author should have put:

Quote:
During their City Management Phase while a city is devoting itself to the arts, a player may choose to spend some or all of their culture...


As it is written you don't even need to wait until you take a city action, because once it is your turn and you are in City Management phase you are at the "Any point during their city management phase".


You are correct, my interpretation was the section on how to spend culture was placed there as it was a logical progression of rules, here is how to earn culture, here is how to spend it.

To me, the phrase "at any point during their City Management Phase" speaks for itself, there are no qualifying statements to this. As brought up before, you can choose to do it BEFORE choosing a city action.
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Edward Wehrenberg
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dwculp wrote:


To me, the phrase "at any point during their City Management Phase" speaks for itself, there are no qualifying statements to this. As brought up before, you can choose to do it BEFORE choosing a city action.


Agreed. No sense adding limits (or rules) where none are there.
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Brian Brokaw
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Yeah, I'm going to start playing by the rules as written (any time during City Management, any player, regardless of their Action choices, may spend culture.)

But it still seems to me that the cards and great persons obtained on the Culture track are valuable enough that they warrant forcing a player to at least dedicate ONE of their cities to obtaining them?

Obtaining a building / wonder / unit / figure requires a city to dedicate itself.

Obtaining a resource requires a city to dedicate itself.

Why doesn't obtaining a Culture card require a city use its action?

It sounds like Kevin changed the game surrounding the Culture track and new wonders appearing... perhaps spending culture was changed at that time too.
 
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David Culp
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brokasaphasia wrote:
Yeah, I'm going to start playing by the rules as written (any time during City Management, any player, regardless of their Action choices, may spend culture.)

But it still seems to me that the cards and great persons obtained on the Culture track are valuable enough that they warrant forcing a player to at least dedicate ONE of their cities to obtaining them?

Obtaining a building / wonder / unit / figure requires a city to dedicate itself.

Obtaining a resource requires a city to dedicate itself.

Why doesn't obtaining a Culture card require a city use its action?

It sounds like Kevin changed the game surrounding the Culture track and new wonders appearing... perhaps spending culture was changed at that time too.


It does in an indirect way, in order to get that culture, you are going to have devote to the arts, the most logical time to spend it is is after devoting to the arts.

I won a culture victory the other night. I had three cites, my capital in which I had built lots of culture producing buildings and great people. My other two cities had incense near them I could harvest. I had two techs allowing me to turn in incense and get 7 and 5 culture each. I also built Stonehenge giving me +1 culture at the start of a turn. My mid and late game turns went like this.

1. Start of turn I got my culture from Stonehenge
2. During trade I collected trade from my three cities and traded my culture cards away for more trade or resources.
3. During city management:
a. My two incense cities harvested the incense.
b. I turned it in for 12 culture.
c. I spent this on culture track increases, hoping to get cards I could use or a great person to stick in my capital before I used the capital action.
d. Devote my capital to the arts and collect more culture.
e. Spend it on culture track increases.




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Esa Ryömä
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dwculp wrote:
It does in an indirect way, in order to get that culture, you are going to have devote to the arts, the most logical time to spend it is is after devoting to the arts.

I won a culture victory the other night. I had three cites, my capital in which I had built lots of culture producing buildings and great people. My other two cities had incense near them I could harvest. I had two techs allowing me to turn in incense and get 7 and 5 culture each. I also built Stonehenge giving me +1 culture at the start of a turn. My mid and late game turns went like this.

1. Start of turn I got my culture from Stonehenge
2. During trade I collected trade from my three cities and traded my culture cards away for more trade or resources.
3. During city management:
a. My two incense cities harvested the incense.
b. I turned it in for 12 incense.
c. I spent this on culture track increases, hoping to get cards I could use or a great person to stick in my capital before I used the capital action.
d. Devote my capital to the arts and collect more culture.
e. Spend it on culture track increases.



Perfectly fine here, at least to my eyes. It's just that the other players probably should've a) not given you more trade/resources oh you culture hogging bastar-ahem, gentleman, and b) come and trample the living hell out of your buildings and everything with blockades.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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brokasaphasia wrote:
Yeah, I'm going to start playing by the rules as written (any time during City Management, any player, regardless of their Action choices, may spend culture.)

But it still seems to me that the cards and great persons obtained on the Culture track are valuable enough that they warrant forcing a player to at least dedicate ONE of their cities to obtaining them?

Obtaining a building / wonder / unit / figure requires a city to dedicate itself.

Obtaining a resource requires a city to dedicate itself.

Why doesn't obtaining a Culture card require a city use its action?

It sounds like Kevin changed the game surrounding the Culture track and new wonders appearing... perhaps spending culture was changed at that time too.


I played China and made it all the way through the entire level one of Culture track without ever devoting a single city action to Devote to Culture. That is merely a way to gain culture. You might go to work to buy groceries, but if I have money or someone gives me money I can still go buy groceries without working at all.
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Stoodster
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brokasaphasia wrote:
Yeah, I'm going to start playing by the rules as written (any time during City Management, any player, regardless of their Action choices, may spend culture.)


I don't think this is quite right. You may only spend culture during your City Management phase. Once you've finished and another player is doing their City Management phase, you may no longer spend culture. From the rules:
"At any point during their City Management phase, a player may choose to spend some or all of their culture tokens..." (p. 17)
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Brian Brokaw
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You're right. I just worded that badly. Thanks.
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Dan Freedman
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Interesting. I had thought that a city needed to Devote to the Arts in order to spend culture on the culture track. This reasoning is based on the fact that "Spending Culture" is a subsection of the "Devote to the Arts" section in the rulebook.

Now reading this thread, I'm not entirely sure. Thematically, I like the fact that you have to "Devote to the Arts" to spend on the culture track. But I can see both sides to the above discussion.

This one should be a quick and easy question for the designer to answer.

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