Harald Korneliussen
Norway
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
I thought for a while that the upcoming wikileaks release would be Russian memos of some sorts, but it now looks like it's US diplomatic cables.

What do you think will come out of this? It's going to be interesting to watch.

On one hand, the US government has known about it for seven months, and they probably know roughly what has been leaked, so I bet they have some sort of media strategy ready (after the release, I mean - not including the rape accusation circus).

On the other hand, behind the scenes plain talk between top government officials can be inherently hard to handle. How would the population of say, a small European country, react if they find their governments have engaged in horse-trading (logrolling) with the US, or yielded to strong-arm tactics?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Snowball
Belgium
n/a
flag msg tools
badge
Gender: pot*ato. My opinion is an opinion.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
vintermann wrote:

What do you think will come out of this?

Much outrage. Some kind of connection between facebook accounts and wikileaks. Wikileaks T shirts.
Nothing that will change our daily routines.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sweden
Stockholm
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mb
vintermann wrote:
rape accusation circus

One of the victims is a friend of a friend of mine, rather politically active on the left side. I can't imagine her making this stuff up or being in cahoots with some CIA conspiracy. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the legal system is a bit corrupt and acts faster and harder than they normally should (just look at Pirate Bay), but they do have some basic facts to work with.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Harald Korneliussen
Norway
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
What's pretty clear is that he had sex with both of them, without the other knowing, and that they became understandably upset when they found out.

Then one of them contacted the police, not intending to accuse him of rape (according to herself). Then the prosecution decided to make a rape charge of it nonetheless. Then the rape charge was dropped. Then it was reinstated.

According to his lawyer, Assange spent a month in the country in order to give testimony and defend himself, then at last asked if he was free to leave, and was allowed to. Now the prosecution claims they haven't heard from him, and that he's impossible to contact, and have issued an international arrest warrant - just in time for the next wikileaks release.

Whatever the truth of the matter, I think I'm justified in calling it a circus.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Foy
United States
Ellicott City
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
vintermann wrote:
I thought for a while that the upcoming wikileaks release would be Russian memos of some sorts, but it now looks like it's US diplomatic cables.

What do you think will come out of this? It's going to be interesting to watch.


The alternative to diplomacy is war!

Is that really what you desire?

Millions dead! Rivers of blood!!!

The leaks concerning the IRAQ and Afghanistan wars were nothing compared to this.

Everyone associated with this website should be held accountable for any bloodshed that occurs due to these leaks. Lets hope there is nothing there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mac Mcleod
United States
houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BFoy wrote:
vintermann wrote:
I thought for a while that the upcoming wikileaks release would be Russian memos of some sorts, but it now looks like it's US diplomatic cables.

What do you think will come out of this? It's going to be interesting to watch.


The alternative to diplomacy is war!

Is that really what you desire?

Millions dead! Rivers of blood!!!

The leaks concerning the IRAQ and Afghanistan wars were nothing compared to this.

Everyone associated with this website should be held accountable for any bloodshed that occurs due to these leaks. Lets hope there is nothing there.


Sometimes, it's better to take the rivers of blood on principle so they stop the worst secret excesses.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Foy
United States
Ellicott City
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
maxo-texas wrote:
BFoy wrote:
vintermann wrote:
I thought for a while that the upcoming wikileaks release would be Russian memos of some sorts, but it now looks like it's US diplomatic cables.

What do you think will come out of this? It's going to be interesting to watch.


The alternative to diplomacy is war!

Is that really what you desire?

Millions dead! Rivers of blood!!!

The leaks concerning the IRAQ and Afghanistan wars were nothing compared to this.

Everyone associated with this website should be held accountable for any bloodshed that occurs due to these leaks. Lets hope there is nothing there.


Sometimes, it's better to take the rivers of blood on principle so they stop the worst secret excesses.


Wow! Way to rationalize war! If it was your death or the death of your family would you be so eager for war? Its so easy when its innocent people in the Middle East that are dying but if the death is closer to home...

Anyway the 'secret excesses' you will find is talking to people. Yes I said TALKING! Talking to Iran for example. Now many warmongers say we shouldn't talk to Iran. Others say talking to Iran is in some way the same as condoning the actions of Iran's leaders. shake I say talking with Iran is a good way to resolve our problems with the country and avoiding a war.

Another 'secret excess' is allowing other leaders to 'save face'. Sometimes a leader might feel boxed into making a military attack. Some of the citizens of that country might even clamoring for a military attack. Then a non-military solution is put forth that allows a leader or country to 'save face' and no military attack happens.

Lets not forget the pay-offs. How much is it worth to avert a war?

I will take the 'secret excesses' any day.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Eig
United States
Huntington
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Whoever leaked these state department documents should be charged with treason, on principle. And if it results in a single person dying as a result of the leak, they should be hung.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Harald Korneliussen
Norway
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
BFoy wrote:

Everyone associated with this website should be held accountable for any bloodshed that occurs due to these leaks.


What, BoardGameGeek? Aren't you taking this collective punishment idea a little far, now?

Diplomacy can be based on honesty, or it can be based on double-dealing and deception. If the US State department thinks some head of state is a corrupt scoundrel, and have evidence for it, it's better for the world if they are open about it. They can of course be "diplomatic" about telling him he's a crook, but they shouldn't ignore the crimes of men like Islam Karimov.

If you don't know, the UK did just that. When their diplomat spoke up about Karimov's practice of boiling his enemies alive, they fired him - and temporarily brought up some charges of sexual misconduct, which were leaked to the press, but which he was nonetheless forbidden from discussing. Sounds familiar? I doubt the US diplomatic service is any less amoral.

But the kind of diplomatic system that permits such things needs to go. The heavily professionalized diplomatic service has long lived its own life, shielded from democratic control and oversight (as have intelligence agencies). Prying them open is a service to mankind, even if it's going to hurt when their amorality catches up with them.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Rowse
New Zealand
Wellington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dtolman wrote:
Whoever leaked these state department documents should be charged with treason, on principle. And if it results in a single person dying as a result of the leak, they should be hung.


And if the leak weren't to happen, and a single person were to die as a result, who should be hanged then?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Foy
United States
Ellicott City
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
vintermann wrote:
The heavily professionalized diplomatic service has long lived its own life, shielded from democratic control and oversight (as have intelligence agencies). Prying them open is a service to mankind, even if it's going to hurt when their amorality catches up with them.


I like to judge people's performance based on their success. Those professional diplomatic services have been incredibly successful by any reasonable standard. Destroying the incredibly successful professional diplomatic services because they don't fit in with some people's unreasistic ideology seems incredibly foolish.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Harald Korneliussen
Norway
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
I do kind of pity the US diplomats. Because on the one hand, there will certainly be a lot of statements made in private that aren't going to look good in public, even though they are reasonable. Things they can stand up for, but would certainly have said in a more tactful (and careful) way if they knew the world was listening.

That's exactly what the poor climate scientists at UEA found out - their documents were also posted to Wikileaks, incidentally.

On the other hand, and unlike the UEA files, there will certainly be ugly things in there. Like what the UK diplomat blew the whistle on in Uzbekistan. Things the public has a right to know, and ultimately make decisions about - and that's only for the US. In other, less democratic countries, the cables will very likely reveal much corruption and duplicity. Maybe even the US State department would have been right to keep these things secret, from a narrow "US interests"-viewpoints, but the US isn't the only country in the world with legitimate interests. If the president of, say, Madagascar is a crook, then the people of Madagascar have a right to know, even if US diplomats would prefer to not go public with their knowledge.

The first kind of statements - the merely embarrasing ones - will complicate the PR handling of this incident. It's a bit hard to apologize and attack at the same time: "We're really, really sorry we called your president a brainless windbag... and we're going to KILL the guy who let you find out we said that!!"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
"that's a smith and wesson, and you've had your six"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I bet it's someones grocery shopping list. There will lots of eggs and wonder bread.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mac Mcleod
United States
houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BFoy wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
BFoy wrote:
vintermann wrote:
I thought for a while that the upcoming wikileaks release would be Russian memos of some sorts, but it now looks like it's US diplomatic cables.

What do you think will come out of this? It's going to be interesting to watch.


The alternative to diplomacy is war!

Is that really what you desire?

Millions dead! Rivers of blood!!!

The leaks concerning the IRAQ and Afghanistan wars were nothing compared to this.

Everyone associated with this website should be held accountable for any bloodshed that occurs due to these leaks. Lets hope there is nothing there.


Sometimes, it's better to take the rivers of blood on principle so they stop the worst secret excesses.


Wow! Way to rationalize war! If it was your death or the death of your family would you be so eager for war? Its so easy when its innocent people in the Middle East that are dying but if the death is closer to home...

Anyway the 'secret excesses' you will find is talking to people. Yes I said TALKING! Talking to Iran for example. Now many warmongers say we shouldn't talk to Iran. Others say talking to Iran is in some way the same as condoning the actions of Iran's leaders. shake I say talking with Iran is a good way to resolve our problems with the country and avoiding a war.

Another 'secret excess' is allowing other leaders to 'save face'. Sometimes a leader might feel boxed into making a military attack. Some of the citizens of that country might even clamoring for a military attack. Then a non-military solution is put forth that allows a leader or country to 'save face' and no military attack happens.

Lets not forget the pay-offs. How much is it worth to avert a war?

I will take the 'secret excesses' any day.


Wow! Way to rationalize secret excesses! If it was your death, freedom, rights or the death, freedom, or rights of your family would you be so eager for secret excesses? Its so easy when its innocent people in the Middle East that are dying, losing their freedom, being tortured, losing their rights but if the death, torture, loss of freedom and rights, were closer to home would you be so eager to sacrifice the truth and put on your collar?

Eager for war? No. Realistic that sometimes it is the only clean way out which has the best result vs appeasement and secrecy? Yes.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.