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Subject: Dune redesign rss

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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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Ilya 77 wrote:
Slev wrote:
Alternatively, I can also adjust the wording to fix Ilya's design
Would be great, i suppose there are a lot of mistakes in my card text.

==========
I also have some questions:

1) What faction names format would be better:
-Emperor, Corrino or House Corrino
-Guild or Spacing Guild
-Harkonnen or House Harkonnen
-Atreides or House Atreides ?

2) What if i change Fremen emblem for two Wormhooks instead of two Chrysknifes?

I'm more looking at changing to match the components really. For example, if you don't do some of the convert-to-card options Scott did.

For faction names, there's obviously an argument for the short-form names in the original (Atredies, Bene Gesserit, Emperor, Fremen, Guild, Harkonnen), on the ground sthey're easier to reas and understand.
On the other hand, the full titles (House Atredies, Bene Gesserit Sisterhood, Emperor of Known Space, Fremen of Arrakis, Spacing Guild, House Harkonnen) add more depth to the background.

Maker Hooks are, I feel, less emblematic of the Fremen way of life. After all, at the start of the book, no-one outside the Fremen culture knows what a Maker Hook is, but they all recognise Crysknives.
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Stefan
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Dude! This is a stunning piece of work. I really like the overall color scheme as well as the cohesive look. Whatever you do, please take your time. Keep looking over the suggestions by others and get that refinement whenever possible in the art and presentation.

Question: are you planning on doing up the rules (with examples used from your art) and/or box art? This would be killer.

Excellent. Excellent!!!

Please continue to kick FFG's ass for not doing everything possible to get this game remade.
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Ian B
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Ilya 77 wrote:
Sorry for late reply, i didn' expect so much activity here

Batz wrote:
I think you might space out the paragraphs of text on the Treachery cards more like those on the Traitor deck.
Fixed where it was possible:Treachery cards

Might be better to reduce the standard font size so you can introduce line breaks? The text on Family Atomics is probably the smallest it could be. Or 'half line breaks'? If not then where you cannot break with a clear line between paragraphs then I would link the paragraphs into one paragraph.

Ilya 77 wrote:
Batz wrote:
I'm not 100% sure on the main worm graphic ...
Made a new graphic (i used picture by Sparth as reference, but it's not scaned or traced):
 
Is it better?

Still not sure, I'll let others comment! It's no big deal to waste much time on.

Ilya 77 wrote:

Updated Spice cards

Batz wrote:
it would be nice to have a duplicate set that does not include the green or red optional rules
I think i will just remove them.(Bene Gesserit optional rule is written on their shield, and looks like almost nobody plays The Duel)

Great!

Ilya 77 wrote:

Batz wrote:
It seems that we have an ideal opportunity with your redesign for you to create a few more attack/defend cards that could be added to the Treachery deck.
Interesting, i just need to know what are the names/types of these cards.

Take a look here and see Glenn's comments:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/5927943#5927943

You'll need to talk direct to Glenn to get his ideas and work with him on images.

Thanks again for all the work!
Ian
 
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Ilya Baranovsky
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Slev wrote:
if you don't do some of the convert-to-card options Scott did.
Sorry, I think i don't understand what "convert-to-card options" means (can not translate it ). Do you mean Scott's text for optional rules or something else?

Slev, thanks for reply about faction names and Fremen emblem, it's now clear for me.

Quote:
Question: are you planning on doing up the rules (with examples used from your art) and/or box art?
I can give my pictures to Slev for his rules, if he needs them.
I don't think about the box art now, but if i make a good picture, it will be posted here. Or at least it could be something simple, like box art for Magic Realm redesign (with dune theme of course).
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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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Ilya 77 wrote:
Slev wrote:
if you don't do some of the convert-to-card options Scott did.
Sorry, I think i don't understand what "convert-to-card options" means (can not translate it ). Do you mean Scott's text for optional rules or something else?
Scott added various extra cards, to remove the need to make notes, and others as play-aids.

For example, he made a deck of cards to track the BG prediction, replacing the need to write down the prediction.

He also made cards showing the alliance powers of each faction, to keep tracking aliances and bonus powers easier.

Ilya 77 wrote:
Slev, thanks for reply about faction names and Fremen emblem, it's now clear for me.


[
Ilya 77 wrote:
q]Question: are you planning on doing up the rules (with examples used from your art) and/or box art?
I can give my pictures to Slev for his rules, if he needs them.[/q]
I'll message you about possibilities later.

Ilya 77 wrote:
I don't think about the box art now, but if i make a good picture, it will be posted here. Or at least it could be something simple, like box art for Magic Realm redesign (with dune theme of course).

This could work well. Arrakis surrounded by the faction symbols.
 
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Glenn McMaster
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You'll need to talk direct to Glenn to get his ideas and work with him on images.

I want to GM an Advanced Game, but with a slight alteration of the standard 33-card deck as a test to see the effect on the 'voice':

3 Poison Weapon
1 Biologic Weapon (snooper or Bloodhound protects against)
3 Projectile Weapn
1 Explosive weapon (Armour or Shield protects against)
3 Shield
1 Power Armour (protects against projectiles, does not cause Lasegun/Shield explosion).
3 Snooper
1 Bloodhound (protects against poison weapon).

 
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Can you share the files in a text/modifiable format (layered Photoshop or whatever)? I'd love to do a Polish translation, including the manual, player aids and everything (if you're just looking for someone to translate the text, then yes, I'm volunteering).



Slev wrote:
For faction names, there's obviously an argument for the short-form names in the original (Atredies, Bene Gesserit, Emperor, Fremen, Guild, Harkonnen), on the ground sthey're easier to reas and understand.
On the other hand, the full titles (House Atredies, Bene Gesserit Sisterhood, Emperor of Known Space, Fremen of Arrakis, Spacing Guild, House Harkonnen) add more depth to the background.
That'd make like several thousand titles for the emperor and hundreds for the houses shake And you just try and omit even one of them devil
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Clint Herron
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GREAT job on this new design!!! I'm totally stoked for this, and really look forward to PNP'ing my own copy!

Ilya 77 wrote:
Batz wrote:
I'm not 100% sure on the main worm graphic ...
Made a new graphic (i used picture by Sparth as reference, but it's not scaned or traced):
 
Is it better?

Updated Spice cards

I think the oddest thing about both of these cards is that the worms look... small. It just isn't saying "Shai-Hulud" to me in that awe-struck and fearsome sense of seeing something that could swallow a highliner without much trouble.

The best that I can point to is two things.

#1) The camera angle is looking down on the worm from an angle -- as if from an ornithopter. While this is good for viewing the worm's anatomy -- particularly without anything to give it scale (such as a spice crawler or person or ship or something) it looks like you're looking down on an earthworm, rather than up at this massive thing towering over you.

#2) Both pictures are showing waaaay more of the worm than I'm used to seeing. Sand worms do ride on the surface in their entirety, but it seems like that's the exception rather than the rule. The most fearsome part of the worm coming is that they pop up from the ground face-first, with their fearsome maws gaping as wide as a crater. The first picture looks like a scientific illustration -- the second picture looks like a coiled serpent on the surface of the sand. I generally view them about as visible as a sea serpent (without the extra humps behind) -- most of them is hidden under the surface of the sand.

For (humorous) reference:



Sorry to lay out so much criticism -- I *really* like everything else about the redesign, and I can't wait to try printing it out! I grew up on the Lynch movie (and later transferred my allegiance to the book), but I still appreciate the way that your portraits herald back to the movie. I must admit, the one thing that really grates me though is how old they made Paul in the Lynch movie -- if you were to only change one thing with your portraits, that would be my choice. Really though, everything is just fantastic, and you've done a really *really* good job.

Thanks so much for embarking on this, and sharing it with us!
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Ian B
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Good comments on the Worm card. Youu hit the nail on the head why it didn't seem quite right to me.
Ian
 
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Filipe Cunha
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Batz wrote:
Good comments on the Worm card. Youu hit the nail on the head why it didn't seem quite right to me.
Ian

I have to agree on that.
 
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Ilya Baranovsky
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@Clint Herron: good and usefull comment!

Worm attempt №3. This is sketch, not final image.
 

I start thinking it's better just copy worm from the Dune cover, and make him in red shades, just like on Scott's card:


HanClinto wrote:
I must admit, the one thing that really grates me though is how old they made Paul in the Lynch movie -- if you were to only change one thing with your portraits
Here you can see new sketches for some portraits -
 

and i'm coloring them now.

Pierzasty wrote:
Can you share the files in a text/modifiable format
The source files in CorelDraw will be available here soon, and you can make your translation.
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Brad Johnson
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I think you just need to add a harvester or something on the ground for scale and it would be fine.
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Clint Herron
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Ilya:

GREAT sketches -- those are fantastic!

I really like them -- I don't think you need to just copy the Dune worm front cover -- I really like what you did there in those sketches, and I think they're fantastic. I think it's great that you're adding your own original touch to these cards.

I applaud any of those as the base-picture-of-choice on the cards -- great work!


One last thing that I thought of -- you're centering your subject in the frame. I think if you made it seem like it was harder to fit the whole worm in the frame, that it might appear larger as well.


Regarding the portraits.... WOW! Those are absolutely stunning!!!

Bewt's expression is fantastic -- really fits with his personality. Esmar is greatly styled -- I love his desert look, but as being independent and distinct from the Fremen. Jessica and Paul are great, and Irulan is appropriately presiding and regal. Chani may be my favorite of the bunch -- you really captured her well. Your portrayal of M. Ramallo is great as well -- almost popish, and I find that a refreshing interpretation. Shadout Mapes is grand in her age, and both Liet and Jamis are well done. Feyd has great emotion in his face, with a lot of fire -- just perfect. Gurney looks fantastic, and gels extremely well. Staban works well, and the Baron is formidable without being overdone -- very nice. Yueh is a great capstone -- he's haunting and appropriately detached -- it works so well.

All told, I'm so incredibly impressed -- I can say without a doubt that I like these portraits more than any other set I've seen so far (including the originals). Did you base these off of anything? If so, I'm having trouble finding it. These portraits are just top notch, I'm a little stunned.

GREAT work, and I'm really looking forward to the next update!
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Gilles
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So far everything looks absolutely stunning.
Please, keep up your excellent work.

The new Shai Hulud sketches are great.
Definately use one of these instead of the current illustration.

A small proposal for the Bene Gesserit tokens: in order to more easily distinguish between normal and co-existing units, you could colour the co-existing side of the tokens light blue instead of using twice the same colour.
 
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Christian Moura
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I would pay good money to have a copy of this game done by you.
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Adam Rouse
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Epee wrote:
I would pay good money to have a copy of this game done by you.
Same here! Everything about this is fantastic. I especially like how the spice blow location is indicated on the card. We probably waste more time on locating the territory than anything else in the game.
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piri kou
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I do love it too...

... The problem being this game takes so long to play that occasions to get it out are quite rare...

 
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Adam
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Ilya, this is amazing and very remarkable work!

I'd like to make a suggestion for changing some of the wording and grammar on the Traitor cards. Is this the correct place to make suggestions? Are you still looking for grammar suggestions for the Treachery cards?

The Traitor cards currently say (as of Jan.08.2011):

Quote:
Play when Battle Plans, if this leader is used by opponent.

You immediately win this battle.
Enemy leader is killed and you receive it's value in spice.

Both leaders will be killed if both are traitors, and nobody receives spice.

I suggest this "long version":

Quote:
Optional: Play after Battle Plans are revealed and this leader is used by opponent.

You immediately win this battle.

Opponent loses all tokens, treachery cards, and leader. You receive value of opponent’s leader in spice.

If both leaders are traitors, then both players lose all tokens, treachery cards, and leaders. Nobody receives spice.

If you do not like mentioning the opponent loses tokens and cards to the Tanks, then you can use this "short version":

Quote:
Optional: Play after Battle Plans are revealed and this leader is used by opponent.

You immediately win this battle.

Opponent’s leader is killed and you receive its value in spice.

If both leaders are traitors, then both leaders are killed and nobody receives spice.

In line 3 of the "short version," it is correct to use the word "its" (no apostrophe).

I suggest an extra carriage return (blank line) after the "You immediately win this battle" -- I think this makes it look more fun (to the owner of the traitor... ;-))

In line 1, I think it is important to say on the card that revealing a traitor is optional. If you do not like placing the word "Optional:" at the front of the line, you could also write:

Quote:
You may choose to play after Battle Plans are revealed and this leader is used by opponent.


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Ian B
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Great post Adam, I agree with your changes.

I like the 'long version'.

If Ilya choose to go with "You may choose to play after Battle Plans are revealed and this leader is used by opponent."

Then the 'may' could be bold as above for emphasis.

Ian
 
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Ian B
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Ilya 77 wrote:

Dune map EN Ilya 77 v1.0 fixed.zip - recent, but not final map(colors need to be fixed)

Ilya - I want to start making your great redesign and I'd like to start with the board. What needs to be done to the colours? Is this something that is a quick fix?

Also, while talking about the board, is the shape designed to fit any particular size of paper? I looked at the PNG and this is what I get using IrfanView:

Print Size (from DPI) 52.6 x 58.4 cm (20.7 x 23.0 inches)

Is this the size you were going to make your board?

I am planning on using PosteRazor and using your current image at the dimensions above with a small (1cm) print border and overlap printed on A4 the map needs 8 pages in landscape or 9 in portrait.

I am wondering if a square board might be more flexible for print and play creators?! Graphically it looks like it might work quite easily, I don't know how much work that would be in Corel Draw though!

I guess that you have been busy over the last few weeks as your posts have reduced in number compared to November! Looking forward to when you get some time to come back to this project

Ian
 
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Adam
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In a previous post I suggested two alternate wordings for the English Traitor cards: a "long version" and a "short version."

When I made a sample image, however, I noticed that there is simply too much text. Adding more text provides a helpful description, however it results in the text being much smaller and harder to read.

I came up with a couple other suggested wordings for the Traitor card:

The "No 'Both Traitors' Line" version:

Quote:
Optional: Play after Battle Plans are revealed and this leader is used by opponent.

You immediately win this battle.

Opponent loses all tokens, any treachery cards played, and leader. You gain value of opponent's leader in spice.

The "No 'Both Traitors' Line" version eliminates the reference to the (rare) situation of both leaders being a traitor. Because this so rarely happens, it may not need to be written on the card (the Game Master can remember this as part of the rules of the game).

Another version, "Minimal Details":

Quote:
Optional: Play after Battle Plans are revealed and this leader is used by opponent.

You immediately win this battle and do not lose any tokens.

If both leaders are traitors, then both players lose the battle.

The "Minimal Details" version references what happens with one traitor (you win) and two traitors (nobody wins). To eliminate text, this does not reference how leaders, tokens, and treachery cards are kept/lost, and does not reference getting spice for killing leaders. This is meant to briefly remind the player what happens in both cases, and then let the player find out how to resolve the situation in the rules.

The purpose of playing around with the English wording is to get the text that will best convey the rules while still looking attractive on the amazing cards! (That is, the text is not too small.)

For comparison, to fit the text of each version, the text size would need to be:

Original (current): ??? (I guess 10px?)
"Long Version": 8px
"Short Version": 9px
"No 'Both Traitors' Line": 10px
"Minimal Details": 11px

Here is a *rough* comparison of how the sample images might look:


http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9295/comparisonoftextsizesad....
 
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Filipe Cunha
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The long version could have 9px text, it just needs better hyphenization and leading/tracking.
 
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Slev Sleddeddan
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What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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In practice for cards like this, even 8pt font is legible, if less than ideal for those with poor eyesight.

Fine detail in summary for edge cases being lower down and in a smaller font makes perfect sense, and looks right.
 
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Ilya Baranovsky
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Adam, thank you for help with grammar.
I like the "long version". But instead of using word Optional, probably better something like "You may play this card..." Otherwise i need to add "Optional:" on all treachery cards
Maybe also it's good to mention you do not discard the Traitor card and can use it in future(unlike Treachery cards).

Have you looked at Slev's 2nd-ed rules for Traitor cards description? (Battle Round>Traitors)

Use Text>Paragraph formatting in Corel to make correct distance between paragraphs, see updated Treachery cards.

Quote:
I'd like to start with the board. What needs to be done to the colours? Is this something that is a quick fix?
I just wanted to adjust the colors slightly. This is not realy important part. There is only minor mistake on the map, it is only 6 phase icons displayed, while in newest rules game is divided in 7 phases (Revival added).I can not edit this map right now. because it's not possible on my PC.

Quote:
Also, while talking about the board, is the shape designed to fit any particular size of paper?
No. It was designed to be close to original Dune map size and to fit 6 A4 pages with margins. I know, it's not the best choice.

Quote:
Print Size (from DPI) 52.6 x 58.4 cm (20.7 x 23.0 inches)
Is this the size you were going to make your board?
Yes. And it is in 200 dpi if I'm not mistaken.

Quote:
on A4 the map needs 8 pages in landscape or 9 in portrait
Are you shure? I can see in Corel it fits 6 A4(210x297mm) in landscape.

Quote:
I am wondering if a square board might be more flexible for print and play creators?!
This is not so quick and simple to change entire layout in Corel, while keeping the visual style.

Sorry, this work is not so quick, I have also Leader disks to rework, and update Treachery cards based on Glenn McMaster's text. And i can not spend all my time only on Dune project


=======================

Here is the folder on 4shared with all newest files for my Dune redesign and source for them in Corel X3 format: http://www.4shared.com/dir/zgj38Vn-/DUNE_boardgame.html
Anyone who is interested may edit text in these files if he has suggestions, or want to fix english grammar. There is also subfolder where modified files can be uploaded.


My first task now is to finish Leader disks, and most of them are reworked: http://www.4shared.com/document/5tTN-SKi/Dune_Ilya_77_Leader...
 

Disks are almost finished, still to fix dr.Yeh's diamond and Piter de Vries lips color. Also some portaits need shading, and i'm not satisfied with look of Soo-Soo-Sook, Alia, Lady Fenring, Duncan and cpt Nefud. Can anybody give me a description for Soo-Soo-Sook, lady Fenring and cpt Nefud?


Slev asked me to add background picture for his 2nd ed rules. I don't know what picture can be used for background, and just add fonts and colors for document, added cover draft and some simple illustrations as expirement: http://www.4shared.com/document/Gs5kjGD7/Dune_Rules_Second_E...
Note, this is just a draft, and cover is draft too, and document has problems with paragraph and text box positioning.

Source in Word2007(docx):http://www.4shared.com/file/O2l7ZK5f/Dune_Rules_Second_Editi...
I used docx, because it is quicker to edit text styles in this format.
The last word about this is for Slev.
 


The picture on the cover is the picture i want to use for Worm car (must be cropped and colored)
 
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Adam
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Ilya 77 wrote:
But instead of using word Optional, probably better something like "You may play this card..." Otherwise i need to add "Optional:" on all treachery cards
Maybe also it's good to mention you do not discard the Traitor card and can use it in future(unlike Treachery cards).

Thanks Ilya -- you make very good points, and yes, that all makes sense.

I am neither a graphic designer or a Dune expert -- I will leave that in the capable hands of yourself and the others on the forums!

I am very excited about this redesign project you are doing, however, and I will pour over Slev's rule compilation as suggested (another remarkable work and addition!).
 
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