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Subject: Noob question about skirmish targets and procedures rss

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Bob Gallo
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Just to make sure I have this correct:

Duel 1 (offensive and defensive players determined by priority rules):

Offensive Skirmish 1 (OS1) may target any die in play (T1)

Defensive Skirmish 1 (DS1) may target OS1 or T1

Offensive Skirmish 2 (OS2) may target any die in play (T2), including but not limited to OS1, T1, & DS1

Defensive Skirmish 2 (DS2) may target OS1, T1, DS1, OS2, or T2

All color effects are resolved immediately upon rolling a 1 (or 2 for rare)
Effect resolution is DS2, OS2, DS1, OS1.
Swarm and Fortress may cause collateral damage to untargeted dice as long as at least one die is a valid target
All dice rolls are optional (simply skip the step)
No die may ever be modified above 6.
Attack, Defense, and Skirmish dice may never be modified below 1
Life battle dice modified below 1 go to the abyss.

Duel 2 - reverse offensive and defensive roles and repeat. Players may pass their opportunity to be offensive player in a duel.

Skirmish phase ends when both players pass their offensive options in succession.

Question: Some dice have class specific targets (Assault, Barrier, Swarm, Fortress) - Do skirmish dice retain their class?
Example:
A Smasher targets an opponent’s defensive battle die.
The defensive player has an Assault die which can only target attack dice.
Can it be rolled against the Smasher (which is an attack die in a skirmish box)?
Can it be rolled to support the defensive die (this would be a class mis-match)?
If the defensive player had a Barrier instead could it be rolled against the Smasher (class mis-match)?

It looks like Swarms and Fortresses may only be rolled by the defensive player if the offensive player provides the opportunity by targeting his/her own dice or if an attack or defense die is in one of the offensive skirmish boxes.

Edit - corrected per conversation below.
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Cameron Chien
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StormbringerGrey wrote:
Offensive Skirmish 2 (OS2) may target any die in play (T2), including but not limited to OS1, T1, & DS1

Incorrect, OS2 may only target OS1, T1 or DS1. The only die thrown in a Skirmish that can target anything in play is OS1.

Quote:
Swarm and Fortress may cause collateral damage to untargeted dice as long as at least one die is a valid target

Not exactly. A Swarm or Fortress, when used, must have a valid target die as one of its targets. However, it targets all of the opponents attack or defense dice.

So in other words, in order to use it, you must have at least ONE valid target, but when using it, you are lighting up all of the other defense or attack dice as valid targets.

Quote:
Attack, Defense, and Skirmish dice may never be modified below 1
Life dice modified below 1 go to the abyss.

I need to check the rules, but I believe if a Life die used in a Skirmish is modified below 1, it goes to Limbo.

Quote:
Duel 2 - reverse offensive and defensive roles and repeat. Players may pass their opportunity to be offensive player in a duel.

Once they pass, they pass for the rest of the entire round.

Quote:
Skirmish phase ends when both players pass their offensive options in succession.

See my answer above.

Quote:
It looks like Swarms and Fortresses may only be rolled by the defensive player if the offensive player provides the opportunity by targeting his/her own dice or if an attack or defense die is in one of the offensive skirmish boxes.

Correct.

Cameron
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John Smith
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i have red the rules. there are no mentioning about that the OS2 cannot target any dice!
FAQ:
http://www.irondie.com/YAF/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33

If it decreases the value of a die below 1: the value of the die is 1 if it is an ATTACK or DEFENSE die, or if it is a LIFE die in the SKIRMISH ZONE, the die is put into the ABYSS if it is a LIFE die in the LIFE ZONE.

The SKIRMISH PHASE ends in one of two ways:
1 all the players have renounced their right to go on the OFFENSIVE, or
2 no player has any dice left in RESERVE
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Michele Latini
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sequor wrote:
i have red the rules. there are no mentioning about that the OS2 cannot target any dice!
FAQ:
http://www.irondie.com/YAF/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33


Page 6 of the manual:
"BREAKDOWN OF A DUEL
1. The OFFENSIVE player takes one of his or her RESERVE dice, shows it to the opponent and declares its TARGET die (or dice) choosing among the dice IN PLAY which meet the requirements listed under “The Dice” above (“TARGET” column). Next, the OFFENSIVE player rolls the selected die and places it in his or her SKIRMISH ZONE.

2. The DEFENSIVE player can:
a. take a die from his or her RESERVE, show it to the opponent and declare its TARGET. The player can only target a die in the SKIRMISH ZONES or a TARGET die of one of the dice in the SKIRMISH ZONES. Next, the player rolls the die and places it in his or her SKIRMISH ZONE; or
b. forgo the first roll in this DUEL. In this case the player will only be able to roll a maximum of 1 die, instead of 2, during this DUEL.

3. The OFFENSIVE player, and after him or her the DEFENSIVE player, both can:
a. use the second roll at their disposal in the DUEL (according to point 2a)
; or
b. forgo their second roll.

So the correct Skirmish sequence is:
Offensive Skirmish 1 (OS1) may target any (legal) die in play (T1)
Defensive Skirmish 1 (DS1) may target OS1 or T1
Offensive Skirmish 2 (OS2) may target OS1, T1, & DS1
Defensive Skirmish 2 (DS2) may target OS1, T1, DS1, OS2




sequor wrote:
If it decreases the value of a die below 1: the value of the die is 1 if it is an ATTACK or DEFENSE die, or if it is a LIFE die in the SKIRMISH ZONE, the die is put into the ABYSS if it is a LIFE die in the LIFE ZONE.

Correct (Page 8 of the manual)
The value of the die is 1 if it is an ATTACK or DEFENSE die, or if it is a LIFE die in the SKIRMISH ZONE, the die is put into the ABYSS if it is a LIFE die in the LIFE ZONE.




sequor wrote:
The SKIRMISH PHASE ends in one of two ways:
1 all the players have renounced their right to go on the OFFENSIVE, or
2 no player has any dice left in RESERVE

Perfect (page 6 of the manual)



AND IT'S A CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES:
sequor wrote:
A Swarm or Fortress, when used, must have a valid target die as one of its targets. However, it targets all of the opponents attack or defense dice. So in other words, in order to use it, you must have at least ONE valid target, but when using it, you are lighting up all of the other defense or attack dice as valid targets.


In few words: you can use Swarm & Fortress only if you are Offensive Skirmish 1 (OS1)..



I'm collecting this and other question (submitted here, on BGG, on irondie forum or on the Facebook group) and I'll publish (soon) in a F.A.Q. file.
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John Smith
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big thx! :) that is justified.

and - yes i was wrong :) sorry OS2 cannot target any dice .. oops (in the rulebook it is an indicative rule - 2a.. thats why i confused)
 
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Bob Gallo
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Thanks all, that reference back to 2a screwed me up as well.

I’m going to suggest a change in nomenclature since T2 doesn’t exist T1 should be renamed to Battle Target (BT). So to summarize:

Offensive Skirmish 1 (OS1) may target any battle die in play (BT) or owner's limbo (LT) for Regeneration
Defensive Skirmish 1 (DS1) may target OS1, BT, *LT
Offensive Skirmish 2 (OS2) may target OS1, BT, DS1 or LT (only when rolling 2 regens in a row)
Defensive Skirmish 2 (DS2) may target OS1, BT, DS1, OS2, *LT

Any dice targeting BT must meet class requirements.
*there are currently no defensive skirmish dice that can target LT

paladino wrote:
In few words: you can use Swarm & Fortress only if you are Offensive Skirmish 1 (OS1).


I don’t think this is correct. If OS1 targets a defense battle die any remaining skirmish dice may use a swarm to target BT and its effects will spill over onto the untargeted defense dice during resolution. My understanding is also that if OS1 is the swarm we have a case where BT = all defensive dice and subsequent skirmish dice may target any of them. Fortress would follow the same rules where BT = Attack Battle dice.

To summarize target specific dice:

Assault - may only target BT and BT must be an attack battle die.
Barrier - may only target BT and BT must be a defense battle die.
Swarm - may only target BT and BT must be a defense battle die. When rolled as OS1 multiple dice light up as BT, when rolled as DS1, OS2, or DS2 effects spill over onto untargeted dice.
Fortress - may only target BT and BT must be an attack battle die. When rolled as OS1 multiple dice light up as BT, when rolled as DS1, OS2, or DS2 effects spill over onto untargeted dice.
Regeneration - may only be used as OS1 or OS2 and target owner’s die in limbo (LT). DS1 and DS2 may target the Regeneration die but there are currently no defensive skirmish dice that can target LT.
 
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Bob Gallo
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Hmmm... I’m probably over thinking it, but shouldn’t the following rule be generalized to any die, not just dice IN PLAY?

Quote:
1.The OFFENSIVE player takes one of his or her RESERVE dice, shows it to the opponent and declares its TARGET die (or dice) choosing among the dice IN PLAY any die or dice which meet the requirements listed under "The Dice" above ("TARGET" column). Next, the OFFENSIVE player rolls the selected die and places it in his or her SKIRMISH ZONE.


The restriction on whether a die must target an IN PLAY die seems to be an attribute of the shape, not a general rule for targeting. Regen dice already violate the IN PLAY targeting restriction, in the future it’s conceivable other shapes could target the Abyss or dice in reserve. Just a thought...
 
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Cameron Chien
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It's probably a hold over from translation. The makers of IronDie are Italian, and things always get a little weird in translation.

Cameron
 
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Stephan
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As I am largely responsible for the wording of the current English rules, I will make a note of things like this (and the reference to 2a mentioned above). Thanks, Stormbringer and sequor.

Btw, sequor, whom do you follow? ;-)
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Greg G

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I don't think this one-lights-up-they-all-light-up rule actually exists for Swarm/Fortress. I've never played myself, but my interpretation is that; unless by chance every one of the adversary's attack/defense dice are already "involved" in the skirmish, you either have to light them all up or none of them up, targetting only some of them is invalid. If only some of them are involved, you can't point to one and say "Swarm targets this which cascades onto them all"
 
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Bob Gallo
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When a swarm is rolled as OS1, all defensive dice belonging to the targeted player are lit up and are valid targets for later skirmish dice. If OS1 is some other die and targets a single defensive die, a swarm may still be rolled later in the skirmish. The swarm targets the single defensive die original targeted by OS1 but it’s effects spill over onto the untargeted defensive dice (note: as I understand the ruling, these extra dice don’t light up as valid targets for later skirmish dice, they just suffer/benefit from the swarm's effect. A target can only be declared by OS1, later skirmish dice may affect more than just the target die but they don’t change or expand the declared target).

The first condition is explicitly covered by the rules, the second condition was covered by the designer here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/557364/skirmish-clarific...
 
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Cameron Chien
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Yep, that was an older thread where I asked the exact thing and got my clarification.

Cameron
 
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Greg G

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Ah. Didn't see that.

Of course, OS1 being swarm/fortress is obv legal, but the rules strongly suggest that you can only target dice that are somehow involved. Guess it could be reworded to "if targetting multiple dice, *at least one* must be in the skirmish or one of the original targets"?
 
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