jay white
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What are people's opinions on the luck-factor in this game? Do longtime players find that there's enough room to mitigate bad luck and still win? Do you think that the same players will consistently win at tournaments (i.e. skill and experience overcome luck)? How often will the best player win?

I'm only in my first game at the moment, and I'm noticing that most things a Jihadist can do are determined by die rolls. (I'm comparing it a bit with Twilight Struggle, where there's always an option of taking an action that isn't luck-dependent.)

I'm hoping that, as I play the game more, I find ways to work around bad luck. It's a bit frustrating to play card after card and not have any success at anything because of poor rolls. All I've really been successful at is auto-recruiting in a country with a regime change marker in it, and playing events where something automatically happens.

I'm curious to hear peoples' thoughts on this.
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James McHaffey
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After one play, I'd say WAY WAY WAY too much luck. I'll report back after a few more plays...
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Adrian Hague
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Yes,there is luck, but most of it is mitagatable.

e.g.

War of Ideas

Normal success range: 5-6
Available mods:
Good adjacent +1
Aid: +1
US Prestige +2 (max)
With all mods, success range: 1-6 (100%)

Other examples apply for the Jihadist.

In some ways, it's a bit of a push-yer-luck thing. You can try that 'dodgy' dice roll now (success on 5-6) or you can spend a phase/ turn or two shoring up your options (reducing governance quality to make plot roll easier, pumping up prestige to make WoI easier, etc..)
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Vasilis
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Ι prefer more rolls than less rolls. Twilight Struggle's die rolls annoy me much more than Labyrinths because they are fewer and with greater impact.

IMHO having to roll more dice {with modifiers ofcourse} during a game is way better than having to roll just a few.
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James McHaffey
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AdrianPHague wrote:
Yes,there is luck, but most of it is mitagatable.

e.g.

War of Ideas

Normal success range: 5-6
Available mods:
Good adjacent +1
Aid: +1
US Prestige +2 (max)
With all mods, success range: 1-6 (100%)

Other examples apply for the Jihadist.

In some ways, it's a bit of a push-yer-luck thing. You can try that 'dodgy' dice roll now (success on 5-6) or you can spend a phase/ turn or two shoring up your options (reducing governance quality to make plot roll easier, pumping up prestige to make WoI easier, etc..)


Except for when you roll boxcars and your prestige is shot to hell...
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Adrian Hague
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Handy Tip: Invest in some precision 'ex-Casino' dice.
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James McHaffey
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Bowmangr wrote:
Ι prefer more rolls than less rolls. Twilight Struggle's die rolls annoy me much more than Labyrinths because they are fewer and with greater impact.

IMHO having to roll more dice {with modifiers ofcourse} during a game is way better than having to roll just a few.


Yes except that guys like Stephen MeCay who wins TS and 1960 at WBC almost every year, realizes that those few dice rolls are almost irrelevent if you know how to use ops and events to their fullest...
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Vasilis
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heinz_guderian wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
Ι prefer more rolls than less rolls. Twilight Struggle's die rolls annoy me much more than Labyrinths because they are fewer and with greater impact.

IMHO having to roll more dice {with modifiers ofcourse} during a game is way better than having to roll just a few.


Yes except that guys like Stephen MeCay who wins TS and 1960 at WBC almost every year, realizes that those few dice rolls are almost irrelevent if you know how to use ops and events to their fullest...


So what makes you think that this is not possible with Labyrinth?

Also some people play games to have fun and not become world champions anyway.

I advise that you play the game some more and if you still don't like it you can go back to TS anytime. No one is going to stop you.

In the meantime I'll continue enjoying my Labyrinth all the same.
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Jim Patterson
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AdrianPHague wrote:
Yes,there is luck, but most of it is mitagatable.

e.g.

War of Ideas

Normal success range: 5-6
Available mods:
Good adjacent +1
Aid: +1
US Prestige +2 (max)
With all mods, success range: 1-6 (100%)

Other examples apply for the Jihadist.

In some ways, it's a bit of a push-yer-luck thing. You can try that 'dodgy' dice roll now (success on 5-6) or you can spend a phase/ turn or two shoring up your options (reducing governance quality to make plot roll easier, pumping up prestige to make WoI easier, etc..)


While I like the game, I'd say the luck factor is far more manageable for the US side than the Jihadist. The Jihadists don't really get die-roll modifiers. The main way they can mitigate luck are by picking already-weakly-governed nations, by using events that yield auto-successes, and by doing things such as spawning cells in Regime Change countries.
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Jeremy Antley
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Can the Jihadist player be held down with bad rolls? Certainly. Does this mean the game has too much 'luck' factor? Certainly not. I know I've offered my two cents in other threads but, to restate, the Jihadist player has several options and the ability to spread out their actions across many targets. If you keep your cells grouped in one place then you will definitely feel frustration over missed rolls.

I think people are having a hard time coming to grips with the asymmetry of play between US and the Jihadist player. People love to compare Labyrinth to Twilight Struggle, but really the comparison is misleading as Twilight Struggle is like 'checkers' in that both players have the exact same options during their play. (Both can coup, realign, or seed influence) Yet, in Labyrinth, the actions of the US and Jihadist player are varied and aiming for different objectives.

If you are the Jihadist you really have to spread out and play to the US weakness in dealing with cell creep. There are several cards which seriously hurt US prestige and if the US player is Hard, a low prestige and World GWOT penalty (you are testing unmarked nations aren't you?) make for very limited options on US play thus mitigating the chance of botched rolls for the Jihadist. Yes, the Jihadist player rolls far more than the US, but they also have more mobility and this is something the Jihadist player must master in order to be effective.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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I think that as players learn the card decks, the luck factor will be reduced.
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nicolas de saint aubain
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Bowmangr wrote:
Ι prefer more rolls than less rolls. Twilight Struggle's die rolls annoy me much more than Labyrinths because they are fewer and with greater impact.

IMHO having to roll more dice {with modifiers ofcourse} during a game is way better than having to roll just a few.



The difference is that in TS you almost always have the choice between a roll and an action that doesn't require any luck.
Experienced players don't complain about rolls in TS. If i had to blame something after losing a game, i'd rather complain about the scoring card distribution, that can sometimes affect significantly a game, certainly not about the rolls.
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Vasilis
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nicodsa wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
Ι prefer more rolls than less rolls. Twilight Struggle's die rolls annoy me much more than Labyrinths because they are fewer and with greater impact.

IMHO having to roll more dice {with modifiers ofcourse} during a game is way better than having to roll just a few.



The difference is that in TS you almost always have the choice between a roll and an action that doesn't require any luck.
Experienced players don't complain about rolls in TS. If i had to blame something after losing a game, i'd rather complain about the scoring card distribution, that can sometimes affect significantly a game, certainly not about the rolls.


Experienced players wouldn't complain about rolls in Labyrinth either. The problem with this whole thread is that we don't have any of those right now but we still draw conclusions.
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Riku Riekkinen
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Bowmangr wrote:
Experienced players wouldn't complain about rolls in Labyrinth either. The problem with this whole thread is that we don't have any of those right now but we still draw conclusions.


I think we do have a couple of experinced (and good) players. We just don't have any league/tourney data to back it up.
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Vasilis
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Riku Riekkinen wrote:
Bowmangr wrote:
Experienced players wouldn't complain about rolls in Labyrinth either. The problem with this whole thread is that we don't have any of those right now but we still draw conclusions.


I think we do have a couple of experinced (and good) players. We just don't have any league/tourney data to back it up.


Then if I wanted to find if the game has too much luck I'd ask them about it. All other players are still newbies, me included of course.

Labyrinth is a slow burner game like Twilight Struggle. It took many years for TS to gain approval and finally reach #1 {I don't give much credit to BGG's ranking system but it's an indication}.

I wouldn't expect Labyrinth to skyrocket in just a few weeks. Many people are still comparing it to TS, others expected a game that plays like chess with no dice etc.shake , some others have made up their minds with a single play and then went on and bashed the game.

I think that Labyrinth will be a hit but it will show after a few months.
If it was a Eurogame about building cathedrals {or mosques } it would be No.1 Hot game right now.
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