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Subject: Is this really a good game? rss

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Corey Butler
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I became interested in this game because I'd really like to play Breakout: Normandy, but it's getting difficult to find that game at a reasonable price. Monty's Gamble looked like a good substitute, and it is recommended by Chris Farrell, which is always a good thing. Nevertheless, I have a few concerns.

I noticed that many of the criticisms leveled at this game are in regard to poorly written rules. These rules have now been revised, but what about the counter errors that have also been mentioned? Some say it's a problem, but others say it's no big deal. The designer, Mike Rinella claims the latter, but this brings me to a more serious concern.

As of this writing, Monty's Gamble has a BGG rating of 6.79, but has this been manipulated by shilling? Only two tens have been given. One is by the designer, Mike Rinella. I have no problem with designers promoting their own games, but to rate them, and not mention being the designer strikes me as deceptive.

The only other ten was given by Tod Whitehurst. Tod joined BGG on 2004-09-28, did his last profile update on 2004-09-28, and has not been seen since 2004-09-28. In fact, the only thing Tod has done here was rate this game a ten. This is highly suspicious and reminds me of the ongoing CardChess saga.

I'd like to be wrong on this, and I'd like to get this game if it's really good, but I guess I'm a little wary right now...
 
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Dan Dolan
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Re:Is this really a good game?
shotokanguy (#461398),

MGMG is a good solid game. The rules are good and the game is very playable. It's a fun game. If you are a fan of the area movement system this will be a good buy for you with a lot of replayability and it has a nice 3-4 hour playing time.

Don't be turned off by the criticisms this is a fun enjoyable depiction of the airborne attack in Holland.
 
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Duncan Gibson
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Re:Is this really a good game?
shotokanguy wrote:
Quote:
Monty's Gamble looked like a good substitute

This is true.

Quote:
what about the counter errors that have also been mentioned? Some say it's a problem, but others say it's no big deal.

I'm on the "its no big deal" side. I played this 2 or 3 times without even realising they'd issued counter errata.

Quote:
I have no problem with designers promoting their own games, but to rate them, and not mention being the designer strikes me as deceptive.


This is all personal preference I guess 'cos I think its OK for designers to rate thier own game, but agree it should be clear they're the designer. But I think Michael's comments make it clear he's the designer. No one else is going to write like that.

Quote:
The only other ten was given by Tod Whitehurst.


Tod's real. I've read his stuff at CSW.

To come back to your first comments, if you're interested in Breakout Normandy, but don't want to pay the big bucks for it, this IS the right solution. MG:MG is a good solid game with firm roots to BKN. Its just a different situation with a few changes and a quicker playing time.

The only drawback is the designer's uncanny ability to irritate almost anyone.
 
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Brad Miller
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Re:Speaking of ...
Mike Rinella (#463552),

So you learned at the Richard Berg school of internet behavior? Really Mike, this is not CSW, and the name-calling and aggressive "attack" posts don't belong here. Take your personal pissing matches somewhere else, because I really doubt anyone here is interested in them. The world won't end because someone rates your game a 1, and the more nasty posts you make, the more you are going to attract them, (see games from Cardchess international for examples).

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Chris Farrell
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Re:Speaking of ...
Quote:
I noticed that many of the criticisms leveled at this game are in regard to poorly written rules. These rules have now been revised, but what about the counter errors that have also been mentioned? Some say it's a problem, but others say it's no big deal. The designer, Mike Rinella claims the latter, but this brings me to a more serious concern.


I think the counter eratta is a minor irritant but in practice negligable. I also think the rules problems even as shipped may have been overstated. I didn't like the rules as they initially were shipped with the game, but they didn't deter me from playing and enjoying the game either. The usual problem with wargames these days is reams of eratta that fundamentally change how the game is played (like, say, WWII:Barbarossa to Berlin), and MGMG doesn't have this problem. If you play wargames, you've easily seen much worse rules than these. And anyway, they've been redone and improved.

I think Mike has become justifiably frustrated with some of the irrational, and apparently personally-motivated, criticism that MGMG has received. I admit to being stunned by the vitriol of some of the low ratings. Sure, MGMG isn't the next Paths of Glory, but it's a good, solid, game that's only $40 MSRP, is interesting and exciting, and unlike many wargames with their bloated playing times, can be played in a couple hours. I'm happy to own it, and I am pre-ordering Shifting Sands with confidence.
 
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Jens Hoppe
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Re:Speaking of ...
Quote:
Mike Rinella wrote:
Trust me those of us over at consimworld who know MGM laugh at this sort of kiddie drool, and that's also why we view the "ratings" at BGG as a complete joke.


But somehow you come across as taking them awfully serious though...

 
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Corey Butler
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Re:Speaking of ...

My thanks to everyone who has posted a reply on this thread. I have downloaded the rules and plan to read them in the very near future. If all is well, I'm going to go ahead and order this game.

Mike, I can see how you've gotten frustrated here, and I imagine I might feel the same way if I were in your position. I hope you stick around at BGG, but I have to say that Brad's right about aggressive posts attracting negative replies and low ratings, whether the posts are justified or not.

Anyway, I look forward to taking a closer look at the game.
 
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Dan Dolan
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Re:
Mike Rinella (#466081),

Ah you're a freakin Euro gamer!

and your sister wears combat boots.
 
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Bill Romaniecki
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Re:Is this really a good game?
The bottom line is that designers and game company employees (no matter how unbiased their opinions) have no business rating their own games. The fact that Don Greenwood does it does not make it right.

A designer has this forum in which to respond to ratings and comments. Every game recieves negative comments. Most negative comments are honestly given and are not personal attacks on the designer.

The "1" rating that I gave this game is a rating of the designer and his abrasive manner in response to low ratings of his game.
 
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Kevin Nesbitt
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Mike,

I've never met you in person, or even spoken with you via email, so I believe what I am about to comment on is without bias.

I bought and played your game, Monty's Gamble immediately since I've enjoyed the system from Breakout Normandy. I think you did a good job with this game, and I enjoy it. It is designed well, and you've obviously had experience with wargames to be able to create such a game.

Now I've stumbled across some of your writings here on BGG, and I really disapprove of the way you are "talking down" to people here. In fact, some of your comments are in such poor taste that would strongly consider never buying one of your designs again, despite how much I may enjoy this particular game.

What happened to the days when a purveyor of goods cared about his/her public image and treated customers (even potential ones) with an extra degree of patience and kindness? What happened to honest business practices?

To me, the reasoning of "the designer of Breakout Normandy rated his game so that means I can do the same" is the type of reasoning I would expect to find in an elementary school (and, to be honest, some of the kids are grown up enough to even have that out of their system by grade 5). Additionally, as has been discussed at length, rating your own game when you stand to make a personal profit is just wrong, despite how much you feel the game is underrated. In any other industry such activity would be viewed with hostility, and in many industries: fines and prosecution. Why then would it be acceptable to do it here? And is the trade-off of backlash attacks and counter 1-ratings really making it worth your time? Maybe you should consider the high-road on this one and let those bashing your game look like the jerks instead of mixing yourself up with them, because right now to an unbiased viewer you're not coming out looking all that respectable.

Consider this comment you made earlier:

Quote:
Another "1" rating of MGM has appeared, by a guy who posted in consimworld that he gave it a "1" ONLY because I gave it a "10". How witty! How clever! What a jackass!


Now, let's pair that up against one of the games that you rated and commented on (Statis Pro Baseball):

Quote:
I think I played this once in the 1980s. Or maybe it was the late 1970s. Anyway, you have one of the bozos who rated the game a "10" to thank for this "1".


Does this sound contradictory to you? Because it sure sounds that way to me.

Again, as mentioned earlier, I've never met nor spoken with you in the past. Basically, you could be completely different in person than your online persona indicates. But the fact remains that the way you act here in the BGG environment reflects poorly on your game and your publisher MMP.

I enjoy, and will continue to enjoy Monty's Gamble. Whether or not I go out of my way to spend MY money on YOUR next game will be entirely up to you. Why not try selling it to me honestly as opposed to hitting me over the head with forceful statements and shilled ratings?

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Dan Dolan
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Mike as you know my position is to cater to every voter.

That aside I like MG:MG. Rating it I would rate it a solid 8. I think it's a good fun game that can be played in one sitting and has a nice feel for the action.

I can understand where Mike might rub some folks the wrong way. After all he has been known to dabble with the occasional Euro game and that as we all know leads to personality problems.

But if you are looking for a fun game to spend a few hours with that has considerable replayability MG:MG is a good buy.
 
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Bill Romaniecki
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"I take seriously people who take the game seriously. If you sniff around my game and raise your leg don't whine and whimper when I smack you with a rolled up post stating the truth."

You just don't get it. Anyone that criticizes your game is untruthfulor not taking the game seriously. What a load of crap. Learn a little humility and self control.

Take out my rating, yours and the two MMP people and the rating would be 6.57. Not bad. Slightly better than average. Favorable overall.

People may dislike your game for a variety of reasons. Often times it is a matter of taste. In general, the better games do rise to the top of the ratings especially as the number of ratings increase. Even POG received 15 1-3 ratings. A second edition should generate another new 54 ratings. If you are correct the rating will rise.

"My interest in BGG is virtually nil at this point."

I guess you will not read or answer this post.
 
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