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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Hedges, walls, etc. for line of sight... rss

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Pete
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i was trying to understand what the rule was trying to say about how it can block LOS when your firing at someone behind it. Now, does it mean that when you trace a line that when it crosses "2" walls before it reaches the target that it will block LOS? Or am i miss reading it? Thanks!
 
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Russ Williams
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No. A LOS could cross 2 walls: one adjacent to the firer, and one adjacent to the target.

If your LOS crosses a wall on a hexside that is not a hexside of the firing hex AND is not a hexside of the target hex, then the LOS is blocked. I.e. somewhere in between the 2 hexes, not adjacent to them.
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Jim Cote
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LOS is only blocked by a wall if that wall is not on the edge of the hex of either the firing unit or the target unit.
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Richard Pardoe
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You have to look where the wall or hedge is. If the LOS crosses a wall (or hedge) it is blocked unless the wall or hedge is on the hexside of the target and/or firing hex. So in the following image, the LOS from J7 to M9 is clear because the hedge is part of either the firing hex or the target hex:



If the left end of the LOS was shifted from J7 to I7 - that LOS would be blocked because the hedge between J7/K8 is not part of either the firing or target hex - but between the two hexes and an obstacle blocking LOS.
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Pete
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Thats basically how i was sorta wrapping my head around it. Thanks for the feedback.
 
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Russ Williams
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PS: I note that the rule actually talks about the sighting hex, not the firing hex. I suppose the subtle difference matters for artillery sighting...
 
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Adam Ruzzo
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russ wrote:
No. A LOS could cross 2 walls: one adjacent to the firer, and one adjacent to the target.

If your LOS crosses a wall on a hexside that is not a hexside of the firing hex AND is not a hexside of the target hex, then the LOS is blocked. I.e. somewhere in between the 2 hexes, not adjacent to them.


Shorter and easier to remember: Always ignore the terrain of the firing unit and the target unit when checking line of sight. This includes terrain on the hex sides of target and firing hex. (Only Exception: Gully). The only terrain that matters to LOS is the terrain in the intervening hexes (except for gully).
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William Garramone
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RPardoe wrote:
You have to look where the wall or hedge is. If the LOS crosses a wall (or hedge) it is blocked unless the wall or hedge is on the hexside of the target and/or firing hex. So in the following image, the LOS from J7 to M9 is clear because the hedge is part of either the firing hex or the target hex:



If the left end of the LOS was shifted from J7 to I7 - that LOS would be blocked because the hedge between J7/K8 is not part of either the firing or target hex - but between the two hexes and an obstacle blocking LOS.
What about from J9 to K8? I'm suffering from ASL LOS association that says it would be into K8 but no further. I'm assuming that the LOS would be clear to K8 for Combat Commander and even to the hedge vertices beyond K8?
 
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Russ Williams
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Keesvanloomacklin wrote:
What about from J9 to K8? I'm suffering from ASL LOS association that says it would be into K8 but no further. I'm assuming that the LOS would be clear to K8 for Combat Commander and even to the hedge vertices beyond K8?

Quite the opposite. The LOS from J9 to K8 is blocked by the intermediate hedge hexside that is a hexside of J8 and K9 - that hedge is not a hexside of J9 or K8, so it blocks LOS between J9 and K8.
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Richard Pardoe
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As Russ points out - the LOS from J9 to K8 has a hedge between the sighting and target hexes, so the LOS is blocked. And even just a vertex will block the LOS. Here is an example of an LOS blocked by an intervening vertex:

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William Garramone
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russ wrote:
Keesvanloomacklin wrote:
What about from J9 to K8? I'm suffering from ASL LOS association that says it would be into K8 but no further. I'm assuming that the LOS would be clear to K8 for Combat Commander and even to the hedge vertices beyond K8?

Quite the opposite. The LOS from J9 to K8 is blocked by the intermediate hedge hexside that is a hexside of J8 and K9 - that hedge is not a hexside of J9 or K8, so it blocks LOS between J9 and K8.
Thanks Russ.
 
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Joni Viitala
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Tampere
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RPardoe wrote:
You have to look where the wall or hedge is. If the LOS crosses a wall (or hedge) it is blocked unless the wall or hedge is on the hexside of the target and/or firing hex. So in the following image, the LOS from J7 to M9 is clear because the hedge is part of either the firing hex or the target hex:



If the left end of the LOS was shifted from J7 to I7 - that LOS would be blocked because the hedge between J7/K8 is not part of either the firing or target hex - but between the two hexes and an obstacle blocking LOS.


Hello, new player/fan of the game here!
I'm conflicted about this section of the rule. The rules do NOT state and/or 'hexside of the target and/or firing hex', it only states or. I'm not trying to read in to the rules so if both, the target and firing hex have hedge as it leaves/enters hex then it would block LOS. We did play it like this but it didn't thankfully change much in the end.

Thanks!
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Richard Pardoe
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Lyrics wrote:
I'm conflicted about this section of the rule. The rules do NOT state and/or 'hexside of the target and/or firing hex', it only states or. I'm not trying to read in to the rules so if both, the target and firing hex have hedge as it leaves/enters hex then it would block LOS. We did play it like this but it didn't thankfully change much in the end.

I disagree with your conclusion (highlighted in red above). The or in the rules is an inclusive or - meaning that if one or both of its conditions are true, the entire statement is true.

You are treating it as an exclusive or - meaning it is true if only one of its conditions is true.

Support for the inclusive or comes from 10.1 which states (in part): If the string touches the physical depiction of a terrain Obstacle or Hindrance in an intervening hex, that LOS is blocked [10.2] or hindered [10.3], respectively. Your interpretation has terrain in a non-intervening hexes (the firing AND target hex) blocking/hindering the shot.
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Russ Williams
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Lyrics wrote:
RPardoe wrote:
You have to look where the wall or hedge is. If the LOS crosses a wall (or hedge) it is blocked unless the wall or hedge is on the hexside of the target and/or firing hex. So in the following image, the LOS from J7 to M9 is clear because the hedge is part of either the firing hex or the target hex:



If the left end of the LOS was shifted from J7 to I7 - that LOS would be blocked because the hedge between J7/K8 is not part of either the firing or target hex - but between the two hexes and an obstacle blocking LOS.


Hello, new player/fan of the game here!
I'm conflicted about this section of the rule. The rules do NOT state and/or 'hexside of the target and/or firing hex', it only states or. I'm not trying to read in to the rules so if both, the target and firing hex have hedge as it leaves/enters hex then it would block LOS. We did play it like this but it didn't thankfully change much in the end.

The rules for hedge say:
T87 Hedge wrote:
LOS: Obstacle; or Clear if the Hedge is one of the six hexsides of the sighting or target hex.

I'm not sure what's troubling you here; the use of "or" seems perfectly clear.

In the J7-M9 example, what is the answer to the question "Is the hedge one of the six hexsides of J7 or M9?"

The answer is "Yes". (Is this what you disagree with?)

Therefore the hedge is not an obstacle between J7 and M7.

In the I7-M9 example, what is the answer to the question "Is the hedge one of the six hexsides of I7 or M9?"

The answer is "No". (Is this what you disagree with?)

Therefore the hedge is an obstacle between I7 and K8.

Am I missing something?


(PS: use of "and/or" in rules text is generally vague and ambiguous weasel wording, I would say. How would you answer that question if it said "and/or" instead of "or"? It leaves one puzzled and wondering "Well, should I be checking if X or Y is true, or should I be checking if X and Y is true?")
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Joni Viitala
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Tampere
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Ok thanks for answers (quick too!). I learn something new everytime I play this
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