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Subject: Eldar sign after failing a check? rss

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Eldar Closer
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Can you use an Eldar Sign to seal a gate after missing a Skill check to close?
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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If you have an Elder Sign, you should just use it before the skill check. Any particular reason you didn't use it?

But to answer your question, the rules don't say one way or the other. It specifically says that the investigator "does not need to make a Lore or Fight check" (pg 18), but doesn't say that he cannot make a Lore or Fight check. So I would probably allow it in my games...

-shnar
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Steve Duff
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Sure, you can use an Elder sign to attempt to close it, if your skill check failed. Next turn, not the same one. You've used up your one attempt this turn.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Sure, you can use an Elder sign to attempt to close it, if your skill check failed. Next turn, not the same one. You've used up your one attempt this turn.


I don't think the rules support this. There's nothing in the manual that says you have to choose to do a skill check or an Elder sign. The only prerequisite to use an Elder Sign is that the Investigator be at the location of a gate and have an explored marker. I was unable to find anything in the FAQ that said once a skill check was made, the Elder Sign could not be used.

-shnar
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brian
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Steve is correct. If you attempt the skill check and fail, you can't use the elder sign until the next round. The elder sign is not an "interrupt" and closing the gate is not the same as casting a spell where you can still use weapons if it fails.

The rules say this:
Quote:
If the investigator fails [the skill check], the gate remains open.
The investigator can try to close it during the Arkham
Encounters Phase next turn (and in subsequent turns, as
long as he does not leave the gate location).

(emphasis added)

Nothing says you can turn around and use the Elder sign immediately. Your phase is now over.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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But nothing says you can't, either. On the next page, it states:

Quote:

ELDER SIGNS
Elder signs are a specific type of Unique Item that
investigators can use to seal gates. There are several
elder sign cards in the Unique Item deck. To use an
elder sign, the investigator must be at the location of the
gate and must have acquired an explored marker, just as
if he were attempting to close the gate. The investigator
does not need to make a Lore or Fight check or spend
any Clue tokens to use the elder sign.


While I can understand the mechanics making sense that you should pick one or the other, in the rules the two don't exclude each other. The only prereq I see for using an Elder Sign is that 1) they are in a location with a gate and 2) have an explored marker. In fact, the first sentence of the rule quoted above makes me feel it's completely separate from closing (i.e. "use to seal gates" and not necessarily to close them, even though, yes, that's what happens).

So, I'm not convinced the rules say if you try (and fail) to close a gate, you cannot use an Elder Sign. Again, not saying it doesn't make sense to play that way, just think the rules are a bit confusing here and think a FAQ entry is warranted.

-shnar
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David Bell
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One reading: The Elder Sign itself says you use it when closing a gate. If you fail a check to close the gate, you're not closing anymore. You've failed, and now you're past the time when you could play the Elder Sign.

Alternate reading: Just because you've rolled the dice doesn't mean you're done with your attempt. Just like you could spend clues, thus the closing the gate attempt isn't over yet, you can do other 'while closing a gate' stuff, including the Elder Sign.

Honestly, I'm inclined to allow it even if the original intention was that that it's not permitted.
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Steve Duff
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The reason I think you don't get a second chance this turn is simply the turn/phase order.

Phase 3 Arkham Encounters starts. You must do "one of the following actions."

The following actions in the rules are "Gate", or "No Gate". Obviously, we're Gate. Gate says you're either drawn through it, or can attempt to close or seal it.

That's one action. The phase is now over. And the rules specifically say you have to wait until the next AH phase before trying to close it again. Note also it doesn't say you have to wait to try another skill check, it just says you have to wait, period.
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Eldar Closer
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It is enough for me to know what the original intention was.
Yet having these things on a FAQ or better still on a rules clarification sheet would be best.

As a last note, the Eldar Sign card states Any Phase: and that's the main reason why I got confused, as this implies that you are free concerning the exact moment when to use it.
 
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brian
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Eldarest wrote:
It is enough for me to know what the original intention was.
Yet having these things on a FAQ or better still on a rules clarification sheet would be best.

As a last note, the Eldar Sign card states Any Phase: and that's the main reason why I got confused, as this implies that you are free concerning the exact moment when to use it.

The "Any Phase" is a mistake and will be listed under the FAQ's errata section. Technically, it is correct... but confusing. You can use it "any phase" it is applicable, but the only applicable phase is during the Arkham Encounters phase.
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brian
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Chipacabra wrote:
One reading: The Elder Sign itself says you use it when closing a gate. If you fail a check to close the gate, you're not closing anymore. You've failed, and now you're past the time when you could play the Elder Sign.

Alternate reading: Just because you've rolled the dice doesn't mean you're done with your attempt. Just like you could spend clues, thus the closing the gate attempt isn't over yet, you can do other 'while closing a gate' stuff, including the Elder Sign.

Honestly, I'm inclined to allow it even if the original intention was that that it's not permitted.

Spending Clues is part of the dice roll process.

You attempt the check. Spend clues if necessary, get the final result of the check. You then pass or fail. You then move on to the next thing. In this case, the rules say that you can't attempt to close the gate anymore until the next turn.

So spending clues is part of the check while using an item is not.
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Eldar Closer
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Eldarest wrote:
It is enough for me to know what the original intention was.
Yet having these things on a FAQ or better still on a rules clarification sheet would be best.

The "Any Phase" is a mistake and will be listed under the FAQ's errata section.


Perfect.
 
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Christopher Boat
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When a rule is unclear like this, I'll almost always lean towards the side that benefits the player, especially in a game as difficult as Arkham.

However, the more I experience Arkham, I'd say it's more in the nature of the game to only allow the Elder Sign or the natural gate close check, not both. The unforgiving nature and difficulty is one of Arkham's greatest charms. laugh
 
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Tycho Terziev
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You should ask around the Warhammer 40k forum about the Eldar signs laugh
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