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Subject: Scenario #5 Fortress Primus - Search points are not Spy Points! rss

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Tim McCormley
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Edit 12/22/2010:

If you want to read the thread, be my guest. But to net it out: Search Points are not the same as Spy points. This is a public service announcement to everyone that might have my IQ problems, as indicated by my confusion exhibited in the thread.

This was originally posted in the "Strategy" section, but really belongs in the Rules section, so I asked the moderators to move it here.

Tim

--------Original Post begins here----------------------------------------
Boy, did I ever get my arse handed to me as the Salamites in this scenario. Twice.

It seems awful tough to overcome the Norad player's ability to generate a bazillion MP by searching.

The way I played it as the Salamites, I focused on actually trying to launch the missle for 10 MP and create Zombies for 4 MP each. The Zombies are ok, but they are really no match for Col. Nick Bolter, especially after he gets his hands on any kind of a weapon. And let's just say that it's pretty tough to get that missle launched, given the number of options the Norad player has for preventing it.

Meanwhile, the Norad player was generating 8 or 9MP a turn with casual searching...meaning that he wasn't trying to purposely grind for MP, he was actually arming himself while generating the MP. So by turn 3 of each game each of his characters had plenty of firepower AND about 35 MP. If he had been ruthless about the searching, getting 12 MP per turn would be a breeze. Or at least it seemed that way.

It was so one sided that we felt that we must be doing something wrong. We were thinking that we were handling the conversion of spy points to mission points incorrectly. We played it as a 1:1 conversion cost.

If we were doing the conversion correctly, it would seem that the Salamites just have to kill the Norad characters very quickly to have any hope. That's a pretty tall order. Or at least it seems like a pretty tall order given my current experience level, which is why I'd be interested in hearing how other Salamite players have fared.

Tim
 
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Re: Scenario #5 Fortress Primus - Any hope for Salamites?
Two things:

1. It looks like you were assigning the MP to the NORAD as soon as they found the items. That is incorrect. The NORAD player gets no MP for "finding" anything. He gets the MP for "retrieving" items, meaning he needs to have a character exit the map while carrying the items to actually get the MP associated with the item. Also when they are burdened with the items they need to retrieve, they can carry less weapons.

2. Judging by how many items your opponent found, it looks to me like you may have neglected to perform sufficient searches yourself. You need to be searching as well so you can mess up the search deck to make it harder for him to find what he actually wants.

Hope this helps.
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Raynald Foret
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Re: Scenario #5 Fortress Primus - Any hope for Salamites?
Quote:
Meanwhile, the Norad player was generating 8 or 9MP a turn with casual searching...meaning that he wasn't trying to purposely grind for MP, he was actually arming himself while generating the MP. So by turn 3 of each game each of his characters had plenty of firepower AND about 35 MP. If he had been ruthless about the searching, getting 12 MP per turn would be a breeze. Or at least it seemed that way.


On average, Vasquez should produce 0,5 MP for every search action, while Bolter and Woo should only produce 0,33. It means an average of 6 MP per turn if the Norad use 100% of its activation for searching ! And then, what is the Salemite doing ???? Bolder is touhgh, but not the other two Norad. And Bolder is definitly not invulnerable either (try a zombie with a knive, or Deeler's virus, etc.).

Of course, Norad will eventually find some interesting items but as El Cajuinais wrote, the character must leave the map with them.

Also, remember that the Prof can produce MP with is computer.
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Tim McCormley
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Re: Scenario #5 Fortress Primus - Any hope for Salamites?
El Cuajinais wrote:

1. It looks like you were assigning the MP to the NORAD as soon as they found the items. That is incorrect. The NORAD player gets no MP for "finding" anything.

Actually, he gets MP just for searching.

Each Spy point generated as part of a search action can be converted to MP on a 1:1 basis, if I understand the rules correctly.

From pg 24 of the main rules under "Spy Points:"

Quote:
Each Spy point (SP) earned is used to perform one of the following:

*Gain one mission point.
*Secretly look at and sort the top 3 cards of the Search deck.
*Secretly view one of the opponents Mission cards.


He never needed to gain MP for finding the items dictated by the scenario because he was generating so many simply by executing a search order and converting the SP directly into MP.

El Cuajinais wrote:
Judging by how many items your opponent found, it looks to me like you may have neglected to perform sufficient searches yourself.

I was doing a fair amount of searching. You have to search to get some weapons (at the very least) to be able to effectively interfere with the Norad player. (The items the Salamites start with in this scenario seem woefully inadequate to the task in that regard. Jeff Deeler can't even use his unless he gets lucky enough to find an interact order higher than 1, or attempt to activate it in the Chemistry Lab, which is no help at all.) The second time we played, Jeff Deeler took one of the items Norad needed for MP to get it out of the search deck completely. But as I mentioned, he didn't need any extra MP from items, since he was generating so many by converting SP directly into MP.

It's actually to my opponents (The Slann) credit that he played in the spirit of the game at all. I'm pretty sure that Norad can win this one easily by simply
Spoiler (click to reveal)
hunkering in a room (any room will do) and doing NOTHING except search, converting the Spy points you generate into MP. If the Salamite player starts to get close to you,(except for Jessica, they move REAL slow) simply run away and search again. The Salamites simply can't generate enough MP to compete with you unless they kill you by turn 3 or 4. Which they won't.


Tim
 
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Tim McCormley
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Re: Scenario #5 Fortress Primus - Any hope for Salamites?
Rafo wrote:

On average, Vasquez should produce 0,5 MP for every search action,

You know what? I think I may have found our mistake...there's a difference between SP (search points) and Spy points.

When the rules refers to SP when executing a "Search Order," they are talking about "Search Points," not Spy points, aren't they?

Tim
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Jean-Charles Mourey
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Re: Scenario #5 Fortress Primus - Any hope for Salamites?
That's correct. SP is short for Search Points, not for Spy Points.

The acronym SP for Search Points is introduced in the Search rule section p24.

There is no shorthand for Spy Points.

Jean-Charles
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Tim McCormley
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jcmourey wrote:
That's correct. SP is short for Search Points, not for Spy Points.

Oh man, this is such a relief! Seriously.

I'm enjoying this game so much, I got depressed when I thought the scenario might be unbalanced.

(Wipes forehead) *whew!* All is well in the universe. thumbsup

Tim
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Matthew M
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Moved to Rules at OP's request
 
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