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Subject: Why do people bitch about games? rss

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Colleen
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As I was imaging men who shudder at the thought of using the word darn in a sentence finding the barely sexual images of 7 Wonders lively enough to consider jerking off, I thought, why do people bitch about games? Isn't that what math trades are for? You get rid of crap games and get new and much less pornographic games like Is the Pope Catholic!?!.

But the RSP worthy question is: why does a child seeing a nude person immediately equate to teaching bad morals for certain people?
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True Blue Jon
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Why do people insult those they disagree with?
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colleens wrote:
As I was imaging men who shudder at the thought of using the word darn in a sentence finding the barely sexual images of 7 Wonders lively enough to consider jerking off, I thought, why do people bitch about games? Isn't that what math trades are for? You get rid of crap games and get new and much less pornographic games like Is the Pope Catholic!?!.

But the RSP worthy question is: why does a child seeing a nude person immediately equate to teaching bad morals for certain people?

Can you find me a person who fits your straw-man description please?
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There are different issues with "nudity" or to use a broader brush - sexualization.

1) The sexualization of women in a non-sexualized context. Usually with no sexualization of men. Therefore implying that women are around for sex and not much else. This creates an atmosphere in real life, especially with men, that women are sex objects and any other aspirations they have are not taken seriously. It can also make some women believe that in order to have value to men, they have to be sexual in that way.
2) The conjunction of the sexualization of women in conjunction with unrealistic body images, which reinforces ideas of sexy = unattainable appearance, which leads to self-esteem problems that can cause young women, in particular, to not fully succeed in life.
3) The belief that nudity causes arousal in men and may cause them to act on that arousal in a non-family-values manner.

I believe the first two are valid concerns for parents. The third one I don't really care about, but can respect a religious persons point of view on.
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colleens wrote:
quozl wrote:
Why do people insult those they disagree with?


Best ironic recapitulation ever.


Somebody on RSP gets me!
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colleens wrote:
In all seriousness, the jump from a naked body to oversexualiztion and pornography astounds me. I am genuinely interested in a bit of deconstruction.


It astounds me too. I've seen those who've covered up bits in Hera and Zeus and Tower of Babel. I don't get it.

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Moshe Callen
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colleens wrote:
quozl wrote:
colleens wrote:
quozl wrote:
Why do people insult those they disagree with?


Best ironic recapitulation ever.


Somebody on RSP gets me!


I am trying to decide if Moshe is joking. I think not. I have to dig pretty deep to find the irony in that one.

In all seriousness, the jump from a naked body to oversexualiztion and pornography astounds me. I am genuinely interested in a bit of deconstruction.

Nakedness does not necessarily equate to either of these things and I doubt anyone except you and others like you who are purposely oversimplifying matters to dismiss the objection have ever said it does.

As I commented on the original thread, why do we not see a grandmother and her small grandchild in the baths? Why do we not see (as would be more historically accurate) fat old male senators in the baths? Instead in some games virtually all the women and almost exclusively the women are scantily clad, young and nubile with body-shapes that are rarely healthy?
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whac3 wrote:
colleens wrote:
In all seriousness, the jump from a naked body to oversexualiztion and pornography astounds me. I am genuinely interested in a bit of deconstruction.

Nakedness does not necessarily equate to either of these things and I doubt anyone except you and others like you who are purposely oversimplifying matters to dismiss the objection have ever said it does.


Didn't the orignal poster of the thread referred to do that?

You're not going to make me read it, are you?
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quozl wrote:
whac3 wrote:
colleens wrote:
In all seriousness, the jump from a naked body to oversexualiztion and pornography astounds me. I am genuinely interested in a bit of deconstruction.

Nakedness does not necessarily equate to either of these things and I doubt anyone except you and others like you who are purposely oversimplifying matters to dismiss the objection have ever said it does.


Didn't the orignal poster of the thread referred to do that?

You're not going to make me read it, are you?

He called it pornographic but not just because the people were naked. His post seemed to me to make clear he thought more was going on.
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colleens wrote:

In all seriousness, the jump from a naked body to oversexualiztion and pornography astounds me. I am genuinely interested in a bit of deconstruction.


First off, I would deconstruct your statement further and not equate oversexualization with pornagraphy. I'd use the following scale:

1) Nudity: Done for the sake of showing someone doing something that requires nudity or traditionally done nude, excluding sex.
2) Sexualization: Nudity (to whatever extent someone's culture defines it) done in a fashion that accentuates the sexuality of the subject. To me, this is where "art" typically ends, though you could probably make the case that some art depicting explicit sex is legitimate.
3) Oversexualization: Nudity (to whatever extent someone's culture defines it) done in a fashion that accentuates the sexuality of the subject with no regard for context and for no other reason other than to titillate, usually used to manipulate males into an aroused state in order to get them to behave in a certain way.
4) Pornography: Naked or scantily clad people posing in overt sexual poses and/or engaging in explicit sex acts for the sole reason of causing arousal and intended for use by people when achieving/seeking sexual gratification.

I think the OP of the other thread may have been engaged in a bit of hyperbole to go as far as calling those cards in 7 Wonders pornography, but I still think the nudity/imagery in that context was unnecessary and therefore gratuitous. It was definity a 2 on my scale and bordering on 3. For some, I could see them definitely thinking 3. Many people are fine with seeing it as a 1, but we aren't discussing those people.

What I am not saying is that the higher the scale goes, the more immoral it is. What I am saying is that the higher the scale, the more intervention is required with children, who are inexperienced sexually, so that they see sex and their role in it realistically and healthily. I just don't want to fight those battles while playing boardgames. It's supposed to be entertainment. If I want to have an educational opportunity about popular culture and it's negative effects on the sexuality of women, I can find countless easy examples on the TV, Internet and in music.
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You know another reason people bitch about games? Dice. What's up with that?
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bjlillo wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
You know another reason people bitch about games? Dice. What's up with that?


The pips look like nipples.


Um, except they go in the wrong direction!
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quozl wrote:

Um, except they go in the wrong direction!


have you never seen a recessed nipple?
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hibikir wrote:
quozl wrote:

Um, except they go in the wrong direction!


have you never seen a recessed nipple?


I think he's saying, in the presence of a man of his prowess, it is impossible to retain their inverted state, so he has never seen one (or two).
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tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
As I commented on the original thread, why do we not see a grandmother and her small grandchild in the baths? Why do we not see (as would be more historically accurate) fat old male senators in the baths? Instead in some games virtually all the women and almost exclusively the women are scantily clad, young and nubile with body-shapes that are rarely healthy?


This is the most annoying bullshit. They can be unhealthy body types to attempt to maintain when your 50, but in youth it can be reasonably expected (which is a large part of the reason its generally considered attractive).

BS. plain and simple. Virtually no one who has the supermodel physique lives a healthy lifestyle; they just can't.

Quote:
Also, it's a drafting card game, who cares about historically accurate renditions? Sure, if Great Battles of History: Water Fight at the Thermae came out I would expect some accuracy.

because it highlights that the use of the imagery is gratuitous.
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tscook wrote:
This is the most annoying bullshit. They can be unhealthy body types to attempt to maintain when your 50, but in youth it can be reasonably expected (which is a large part of the reason its generally considered attractive).


I think you are being a tad unrealistic here, if you think about the women you went to high school and/or college with and think about the number of them that actually could attain those standards without resorting to eating disorders and/or plastic surgery compared to the number that could achieve those appearances with a reasonable amount of good genes and exercise, I think you'd be hard pressed to honestly stand by that statement. The proof is in the statistics that body image causes thousands of young women to despair and drives them to unhealthy choices in order to attempt the impossible. Thousands, if not millions, don't make physically unhealthy choices trying to attain, but live unhealthy lives psychologically.

tscook wrote:
Also, it's a drafting card game, who cares about historically accurate renditions? Sure, if Great Battles of History: Water Fight at the Thermae came out I would expect some accuracy.


So, the scantilty clad young women are unnecessary? You are conceding that their inclusion is not historical, so for what reason are they there?
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tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
As I commented on the original thread, why do we not see a grandmother and her small grandchild in the baths? Why do we not see (as would be more historically accurate) fat old male senators in the baths? Instead in some games virtually all the women and almost exclusively the women are scantily clad, young and nubile with body-shapes that are rarely healthy?


This is the most annoying bullshit. They can be unhealthy body types to attempt to maintain when your 50, but in youth it can be reasonably expected (which is a large part of the reason its generally considered attractive).

BS. plain and simple. Virtually no one who has the supermodel physique lives a healthy lifestyle; they just can't.


The original cards in question hardly depict a "supermodel physique", maybe a "not being a fat pig" physique.

Quote:
Quote:
Also, it's a drafting card game, who cares about historically accurate renditions? Sure, if Great Battles of History: Water Fight at the Thermae came out I would expect some accuracy.

because it highlights that the use of the imagery is gratuitous.


Gratuitous? What's wrong with expecting not-ugly depictions of the human body?

1. Your language itself shows an unhealthy attitude.
2. No, these are not being "not a fat pig" but they are in fact very much the supermodel physique.

Shall I link to the image in question?
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bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shall I link to the image in question?


Sure.



You're saying these are not supermodel body types that both women in this picture have?

Get serious.
 
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Are you guys missing the point or will you be acting it out?
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tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shall I link to the image in question?


Sure.


You're saying these are not supermodel body types that both women in this picture have?

Get serious.


That is absolutely what I'm saying.


Fine. If you refuse to deal with reality, there's not much to say. What you're doing is the equivalent of pointing to a checkered football and insisting adamantly that it is of a solid color.
 
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tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shall I link to the image in question?


Sure.


You're saying these are not supermodel body types that both women in this picture have?

Get serious.


That is absolutely what I'm saying.


Seconded. They look like slender young women to me. Nothing out of the ordinary.
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whac3 wrote:
tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shall I link to the image in question?


Sure.


You're saying these are not supermodel body types that both women in this picture have?

Get serious.


That is absolutely what I'm saying.


Fine. If you refuse to deal with reality, there's not much to say. What you're doing is the equivalent of pointing to a checkered football and insisting adamantly that it is of a solid color.


I think you're both right and wrong. Those are supermodel body types insofar as I've seen supermodels that look like that and could easily imagine those fictional women joining their ranks. That said, neither of them seem to have an overly unrealistic body type, in that I could go to the mall today and pick out five to ten people that roughly match the image within the first hour or so. Is it a healthy body type? Debatable, something that hinges upon the specifics of the individual in question. However, are you two discussing health concerns or realism? Those are obviously very different things and the if the reality happened to be that many females were unhealthily adhering to this body type then realistic art would depict them as such (Not saying that that is necessarily the case, just highlighting the distinction).

That said, the "not a fat pig" line of argument is just baffling. Tscook, what is a "fat pig" and at what point does a body type gain that descriptor? If there isn't a rather large range of types between what we're seeing and "fat pig" then you might actually have some highly limiting personal preferences (Not something to really argue though, obviously, but you should be aware of it). If there is a variety between them then the argument doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. Which is it (Or have I created a false dichotomy)?
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whac3 wrote:
tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
As I commented on the original thread, why do we not see a grandmother and her small grandchild in the baths? Why do we not see (as would be more historically accurate) fat old male senators in the baths? Instead in some games virtually all the women and almost exclusively the women are scantily clad, young and nubile with body-shapes that are rarely healthy?


This is the most annoying bullshit. They can be unhealthy body types to attempt to maintain when your 50, but in youth it can be reasonably expected (which is a large part of the reason its generally considered attractive).

BS. plain and simple. Virtually no one who has the supermodel physique lives a healthy lifestyle; they just can't.


The original cards in question hardly depict a "supermodel physique", maybe a "not being a fat pig" physique.

Quote:
Quote:
Also, it's a drafting card game, who cares about historically accurate renditions? Sure, if Great Battles of History: Water Fight at the Thermae came out I would expect some accuracy.

because it highlights that the use of the imagery is gratuitous.


Gratuitous? What's wrong with expecting not-ugly depictions of the human body?

1. Your language itself shows an unhealthy attitude.
2. No, these are not being "not a fat pig" but they are in fact very much the supermodel physique.

Shall I link to the image in question?


Crikey a MEGGA quote!!

look i play games for fun. if the art work is more fun, then great.

also nudity is not porn. if the conservative priest of the overtly authoritarian religion of your choice told you this, slap him and pay for his councillor.

porn is a depiction of sexual acts. you may even be clothed..

a bloke with a monster showing in his trousers tweaking a fully clad woman's erect niple though her T-shirt is porn. and all cloths are on
.
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antiussentiment wrote:
whac3 wrote:
tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
tscook wrote:
whac3 wrote:
As I commented on the original thread, why do we not see a grandmother and her small grandchild in the baths? Why do we not see (as would be more historically accurate) fat old male senators in the baths? Instead in some games virtually all the women and almost exclusively the women are scantily clad, young and nubile with body-shapes that are rarely healthy?


This is the most annoying bullshit. They can be unhealthy body types to attempt to maintain when your 50, but in youth it can be reasonably expected (which is a large part of the reason its generally considered attractive).

BS. plain and simple. Virtually no one who has the supermodel physique lives a healthy lifestyle; they just can't.


The original cards in question hardly depict a "supermodel physique", maybe a "not being a fat pig" physique.

Quote:
Quote:
Also, it's a drafting card game, who cares about historically accurate renditions? Sure, if Great Battles of History: Water Fight at the Thermae came out I would expect some accuracy.

because it highlights that the use of the imagery is gratuitous.


Gratuitous? What's wrong with expecting not-ugly depictions of the human body?

1. Your language itself shows an unhealthy attitude.
2. No, these are not being "not a fat pig" but they are in fact very much the supermodel physique.

Shall I link to the image in question?


Crikey a MEGGA quote!!

look i play games for fun. if the art work is more fun, then great.

also nudity is not porn. if the conservative priest of the overtly authoritarian religion of your choice told you this, slap him and pay for his councillor.

porn is a depiction of sexual acts. you may even be clothed..

a bloke with a monster showing in his trousers tweaking a fully clad woman's erect niple though her T-shirt is porn. and all cloths are on
.

I never used the term porn nor brought religion into the discussion.

Care to try again?
 
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colleens wrote:
In all seriousness, the jump from a naked body to oversexualiztion and pornography astounds me.

Let's get the guy a copy of Hustler White for xmas so he can figure out the difference.
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