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Subject: Discussion Thread for a regular European Auction Geeklist rss

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Tony Ackroyd
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If like me you are a Geekbay regular, or subscriber you'll be frustrated by the number of US user auctions compared to the few European ones.

You might not even be aware of the European auction subscription thread (which you should subscribe to):
European Geeklist auction subscription thread

But even there you won't find many auctions. Maybe because individually there aren't many of us with lots of games to auction, so don't think we merit a list of our own.

What I've been thinking about is that an auction doesn't need to be all the same user. Most auctions in the real world aren't. So what about if we have a regular (maybe monthly?) auction geeklist set up where anyone (who can ship from Europe to Europe to minimise shipping costs) can add an auction item or items. I'd certainly take part. Would anyone else be interested? Heres some questions to test the water.

Poll
1. Do you live in Europe and would you be interested?
Yes
No
Maybe
I don't understand the concept
2. How often should it be?
Monthly
Every two months
Quarterly
Don't mind as long as it happens
Don't know
3. Should it be restricted to just Europeans?
Yes
No - include the rest of the World
No - include the rest of the World except the USA (ridiculous international shipping costs)
4. Should the list have some standard rules?
Yes
Yes, default ones, but users may amend them for their auctions
No, just be freeform and users dictate their own rules on each auction
      157 answers
Poll created by 1000rpm

Edit: In the poll above the "should it be restricted to just Europeans" question refers to the sellers.

What would the standard rules be? For example:
Length of auction - say 2 weeks?
End of auction timing - fixed or at a random time to discourage sniping?
End of auction extensions for late bids?
Whether items could be geekgold lotteries?
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Gudjon Torfi Sigurdsson
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Great idea Tony!
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1000rpm wrote:

3. Should it be restricted to just Europeans?

We need to define what Europe is (hard enough as it is politically). Is it Lisbon to Vladivostok? Nordkapp to Crete?
There's this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_points_of_europe


1000rpm wrote:

What would the standard rules be? For example:
Length of auction - say 2 weeks?
End of auction timing - fixed or at a random time to discourage sniping?
End of auction extensions for late bids?
Whether items could be geekgold lotteries?

2 weeks, random end time, no extensions, no lottery is my opinion
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Tony Ackroyd
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kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
1000rpm wrote:

3. Should it be restricted to just Europeans?

We need to define what Europe is (hard enough as it is politically). Is it Lisbon to Vladivostok? Nordkapp to Crete?
There's this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_points_of_europe

Not sure it is a big deal, as buyer pays shipping is the normal rule of auction geeklists, so if you live in a country outside of the EU postal zone (whatever that is), e.g. Finland, and it is more expensive then you'll know the shipping.
The seller should probably give guideline shipping costs for: in-country, EU, wider Europe.

Edit: In fact, thinking about it I see no issue with buyers being from outside Europe as long as they are prepared to pay the shipping costs.
 
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Tony Ackroyd
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Interesting. So far it is 13 votes for "Just Europe" and 4 for "No - include the rest of the World".

I'm interested to know who these four voters are. I'm guessing from the US, as they didn't choose the other option.

I should probably explain the point of this geeklist. There are loads of US-centric auction lists. Having the US included in this auction geeklist would make it pointless for anyone else? Why? Because it would be swamped by US users (since there are so many on this site) and as US -> International postage is very high that would make it a US auction geeklist. Not that it wouldn't be a bad idea, but someone from the US can start that.
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I'm one of those four. I understood the question as "Do you want the auction to be opened to non-european bidders?", but maybe I got it wrong. I assumed that since the name is "european auction geeklist" it implied the only sellers would be from Europe.

Can you clarify? Thanks!
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Tony Ackroyd
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cafeine wrote:
I'm one of those four. I understood the question as "Do you want the auction to be opened to non-european bidders?", but maybe I got it wrong. I assumed that since the name is "european auction geeklist" it implied the only sellers would be from Europe.

Can you clarify? Thanks!

Thanks for the question. I don't think I'd been completely clear. Sellers from Europe, buyers from anywhere (but they pay shipping).
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1000rpm wrote:

Thanks for the question. I don't think I'd been completely clear. Sellers from Europe, buyers from anywhere (but they pay shipping).


Thanks!

I saw your edit in the first post and changed my vote.
 
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Kris Verbeeck
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I'm interested.
However I'm way more interested in handovers here's why.

The main reason why I don't trade or buy things from fellow boardgamegeeks is because of the shipping costs.
For example trading a thirthy euro game for another one within europe will cost me 26 euro on shipping alone. If I sell a game the buyer has to pay a lot for shipping.

these are the tarives in Belgium



This pretty much means that shipping is out of the question even in europe.

If anbody can point me out to better rates, I am all ears.

I am aware of Kiala post and that would drop it to 18 euro.But the one experience I had with Kiala wasn't so good.

PS: If this post is not in place here please feel free to pm me Tony and i remove it.
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Gudjon Torfi Sigurdsson
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Well, that's understandable Kris, it's similar from my viewpoint. Actually it's even worse as the Iceland Post charges a base rate + each kg. So it's almost out of the question to ship heavy games, see here.

Although when I see games I really want I'm willing to pay the shipping, it's preferable to not owning it!
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Hélio Andrade
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Lets do this monthly, 1 week time limit auctions by default.
Personally i would create my auctions on different month days from the EU Math Trade (between 3rd and 4th week of the month), so I can try to trade the games, and then auction the remaining ones, without overlaps between dates.
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Tony Ackroyd
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Well it looks like we are up for this monthly, European sellers only, with buyers from anywhere, with some default rules.
A good point by Helio on the timing - there is likely to be a lot of people who'd be sellers on this list and in the Europe/German/UK monthly Maths trades, so this list will probably be created 3 weeks into each month to allow the maths trades to finalise, but have the most of the auctions (assuming a 1 week timescale) to end before the next maths trades start up.

I'll try to start the first one of these up about the 20th Jan and we can see how it goes. A few choices on default rules (feel free to add any more polls/suggestions):
Poll
1. Default auction length
4 days
1 week
10 days
2 weeks
2. Allow geekgold lotteries as an option for sellers
Yes
No
Don't know
Don't care
3. Sellers should be required to give estimated postage for (select all that you think should apply):
Their country
Europe
Rest of the World
Anywhere they are asked to estimate for
Don't know
4. Auction end times should be (select all that you like):
Fixed at the time exactly 1 week after the item was posted
At a random time (on the day 7 days after the item was posted) to discourage sniping
Extended by an hour for late bidders
Completely up to the seller (no default rule)
      60 answers
Poll created by 1000rpm
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Most of the questions in this latest survey could be debated but isn't "At a random time (on the day 7 days after the item was posted) to discourage sniping " a no-brainer?
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Tony Ackroyd
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Okay, I've created a DRAFT version of the first auction geeklist.
NOTE: I have NOT published this list, so don't start adding items to it - I expect to publish it on 20th January.

It is quite complicated to write the rules (I've listed 15 rules!), so can everyone who is interested please review the list and check that you think the rules are clear and complete/see if there is anything you disagree with. I've tried to make it as flexible as possible.

Note that in this draft list I have linked to this Discussion Thread, but in the proper list that will be published it will have its own discussion thread each month. Heres the list:

European Auction Geeklist: January
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Quote:

- Expected shipping cost within their country
- Expected shipping cost within Europe
- (optional) Expected shipping cost for the Rest of the World
- (optional) Where they are prepared to ship to


I would formulate the last sentence something like "To which non-European countries they are prepared to ship to" as requirement of providing domestic and European shipping costs presumes that the seller is ready to send to Europe.

By the way, something has to be done about definition of Europe - is it EU only? Is it EU plus some other countries? Is it geographical Europe, including Russia and Turkey? I haven't done any shipping and I think that this definition should be based on the usual post pricing policy, so I am not a good adviser here.

Quote:

15. Unusual currencies (e.g. Swedish Krona) for auctions/shipping costs should have their exchange rates to the Euro listed with the item.


As for myself, I can perfectly figure out exchange rates for almost any possible world currency. However the term "unusual" sounds at least strange in this context. I think you should either drop this requirement completely, because exchange rates fluctuate, or provide an explicit list of "official" currencies (Euro? Euro+GBP? Currencies that PayPal is able to transfer?).

Nice idea however. I look forward to see this list at work even though my gaming budget after Christmas is close to empty...
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Tony Ackroyd
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Good points! Thanks for the response.

Quote:
I would formulate the last sentence something like "To which non-European countries they are prepared to ship to" as requirement of providing domestic and European shipping costs presumes that the seller is ready to send to Europe.

Hmm... the issue I see here is that some games will not be economically viable to ship internationally. For example I shipped Heroscape to Finland and it cost £40. In this case I'd see some items just being offered 'within country'.
So maybe I should amend the European shipping costs entry with the addition "if applicable".

Quote:
definition of Europe

The issue here is that it is difficult to define. I'd go with the widest definition possible to maximise the people listing items for sale.
I suspect that a lot of the items up for auction will go to people within the same country, so it probably won't matter if people from smaller (in #geeks terms) countries on the fringes of Europe.
I did start looking at the UK postal service's definition of Europe and it is very wide, but I suspect that not all postal services use the same definition. Here it is:
http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/content3?catId=400036&med...
Also the UK to Europe postage calculator (not sure if this is official):
http://www.postagerates.org.uk/uk/europe.asp

Quote:
15. Unusual currencies (e.g. Swedish Krona) for auctions/shipping costs should have their exchange rates to the Euro listed with the item.

The reason I added this is because I've seen people have auctions with non-euro currencies and I think it is a bit of a pain for everyone to then have to look up the exchange rates to get a rough idea of the costs. You are right that rates will vary.
One way around this would be to restrict the currencies used to just Euros, or maybe Euro & GBP (on the assumption that there will be a lot of UK sellers, where the buyers are also likely to be in the UK).
What would people think of this?
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1000rpm wrote:

Quote:
15. Unusual currencies (e.g. Swedish Krona) for auctions/shipping costs should have their exchange rates to the Euro listed with the item.

The reason I added this is because I've seen people have auctions with non-euro currencies and I think it is a bit of a pain for everyone to then have to look up the exchange rates to get a rough idea of the costs. You are right that rates will vary.
One way around this would be to restrict the currencies used to just Euros, or maybe Euro & GBP (on the assumption that there will be a lot of UK sellers, where the buyers are also likely to be in the UK).
What would people think of this?


I would pick one currency to use, to avoid confusion. For example, everyone lists & bids in EUR - otherwise you will have the problem of some people not knowing if they have really been overbid.

I would post this link in the header of the geeklist:
http://www.ecb.int/stats/exchange/eurofxref/html/index.en.ht...
and ask people to bid in EUR, but here is this handy list for some reference.

In addition to PayPal, I would add MoneyBookers as a payment method suggestion.
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Gudjon Torfi Sigurdsson
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Just for information, the postage from Iceland:

Iceland Post
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1000rpm wrote:

Quote:
definition of Europe

The issue here is that it is difficult to define. I'd go with the widest definition possible to maximise the people listing items for sale.


This question comes up regularly in the European math trade discussion threads and AFAIK hasn't been satisfyingly solved. I'd say go with the broadest definition of Europe and let the bidders decide if they want to bid or not based on shipping costs.
 
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Tony Ackroyd
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kreikkaturkulainen wrote:
1000rpm wrote:

Quote:
15. Unusual currencies (e.g. Swedish Krona) for auctions/shipping costs should have their exchange rates to the Euro listed with the item.

The reason I added this is because I've seen people have auctions with non-euro currencies and I think it is a bit of a pain for everyone to then have to look up the exchange rates to get a rough idea of the costs. You are right that rates will vary.
One way around this would be to restrict the currencies used to just Euros, or maybe Euro & GBP (on the assumption that there will be a lot of UK sellers, where the buyers are also likely to be in the UK).
What would people think of this?


I would pick one currency to use, to avoid confusion. For example, everyone lists & bids in EUR - otherwise you will have the problem of some people not knowing if they have really been overbid.

Ah, I meant that the auction item would have a specified currency - so if I post an item, as a UK seller I would prefer to sell in GBP (avoiding double currency charges if a UK buyer buys it in Euros). Then everyone would bid on that item in GBP - so no confusion in being outbid or not.
For the same reason other sellers may want to sell in their own currency, e.g. Swedish Krona.

Quote:
In addition to PayPal, I would add MoneyBookers as a payment method suggestion.

And I suspect that a lot of continental European geeks would do direct bank transfer - where there are no charges (there are large charges for UK -> Europe bank transfers).
 
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Tony Ackroyd
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I've edited the list to make most of the changes discussed so far:
European Auction Geeklist: January
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Jean Rolfe
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Thanks Tony - really looking forward to this
 
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Tony Ackroyd
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The January geeklist is now up. I've stuck a few items on and will probably add more myself later - time is fleeting right now.

European Auction Geeklist: January
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Eddy Richards
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Seems to be going OK, hopefully the number of bidders will pick up.

I did have a question about item 10, transaction costs. Could we ask that if these aren't paid for by the seller (as would be normal) that the cost should be given (even if it's a percentage, like in paypal) - though in these cases it surely is easier if the seller factors it into the minimum bid.

Also, if there were a situation where the buyer has to pay import duties (for example) then these presumably must be the buyer's responsibility, not the seller's.

Apart from that the rules seem lucid and comprehensive!
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Ben Bateson
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I think there has been enough interest to class this as a success.

Same again next month?
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