Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
12 Posts

Wings of War: Watch Your Back!» Forums » General

Subject: blocked line of sight rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Kevin
United States
Kalamazoo
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Can anyone clarify when is the line of sight for the rear gunners blocked?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Re:blocked line of sight
Lunga (#466264),

In the two games we played today we decided that the rear gunner is blocked for the narrow V over the tail of the plane where the rear edge of the ailerons curves in toward the tail itself. (There's a V-shaep, just the width of the V). I didn't see anything in the rules about this, but it seems quite sutiable in a Indiana Jone kinda way (remember the scene?).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrea Angiolino
Italy
Rome
European Union
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re:blocked line of sight
There is an official rule among the optional ones, if you want:

BLIND SPOTS FOR REAR GUNS
The rear machine gun of two-seaters planes has a blind spot just on the rear of the tail. Use the ruler to connect the center of the two-seater plane with the center of the would-be target in the rear arch. If the ruler passes in the rear side of the two-seater airplane card and if the ruler touches any point of the target card with its first half, firing is not possible.


If you like it, it makes for a blind spot larger than the one you are describing.

Bye and thanks!

Andrea
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Re:blocked line of sight
angiolillo (#466847),

That does make for a far smaller firing arc, but suffers the same ambiguity that the current written tailing rules suffer, in that on cards with round corners determining the bottom edge of the card is subject to debate. There are two variously easily determined hard definitions I've seen used:

1. If the line passing between the red dots crosses the paper scroll area at the bottom of the card. (This is the version we use for our tailing definition).
2. If the line passing between the red dots crosses the straight edge of the bottom of the card (not the round corners). This is of course highly subject to slight card movements in measuring, and thus can be the cause of spirited debates, but can be made to work.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re:blocked line of sight
I'd "vote" for the easiest and least subject to those slight tweaks of the cards.

Just having the tail (itself) block makes sense to me and will have fewer fuzzy places.

One of the potentially tenderest parts of the game is the slight "tweaks" that may or may not happen when placing the plane card into the new position-- a tiny, fraction of a movement can make the difference between having a plane within the aiming V or not-- tough on gamers to not be wishful in their placement at times like that, especially if the target card has happened to move first.

While WyB is stil not here (YET!!) and I never played with the UFAG promo card, I suspect most 2 seaters will struggle in the game. Remember, the DH4 and UFAG are unusually fast for the period-- most 2 seaters will be a lot slower (and easier targets).

kd
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin
United States
Kalamazoo
Michigan
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re:blocked line of sight
angiolillo (#466847),
Thanks for the reply, that's the way we are playing it. I am finding out that going after a 2-seater is not as easy as one might think. I seem to take as much as I give!

Loads of fun, can't wait for Burning Drachens.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Re:blocked line of sight
kduke (#467882),

Having played a few games with the two seaters now we've settled on a definition for th firing arcs:

The firing arc of a two-seater is bounded to the rear by the extensions of the edges of their front firing arc after passing through the central red dot.

Simply, just line the ruler up with the red dot so that it also lies along the edge of the front firing arc. That line, towards the rear of the plane, is the edge of the rear firing arc on the said. Repeat for the other side to get that rear edge. If you have a problem with length, simply line one ruler up as described, and then slide the other rule along it until the corner is on the red dot. You can then do the arc-swing from there to the forward line to detect hits. This pattern makes for two narrow rear firing arcs on each side and a wonking huge blind spot right to the rear for lucky tailers and tends to work out rather nicely..

For grande-melee style team fights with the two-seaters, same number of planes on both sides), we're currently toying with the following additional specs for two-seaters (see earlier notes on the simplifying variant we play):

- Firing arcs as above.

- Jammed guns jamm damage cards both guns

- No double-A damage planes. A at one end, B at the other, the pilot picks which at which end at game start.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re:blocked line of sight
First, I love the arc thing-- very good.

Second-- wouldn't you like the possibility of an A-shooting UFAG?

I like the options to the DH4. I would like to have had a second B/B for "normal" and then consider the B/A as the sort of "escort support" that some 2 seaters did.

No A/A? Says a lot about theit lethalness. (speed kills)

Did someone say Immelman with the DH4?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Re:blocked line of sight
kduke (#476995),

I'm still fiddling with the gun weight for the Ufags in grand melee games. We played the A/B mix I described this Monday, and frankly, the UFag, a Spad and a Fokker were gunned down by a pair of Hanriots before they could do much more than burp. It was a total rout with almost no damage served by anyone but the Hanriots.

That said the test was also grossly unfair in my favour. Both Hanriots were flown by me... We were one player short for balanced sides so I flew two planes (we've done this before) with my second flying a Camel. Now we know not to let one player fly two planes of the same type together, especially Hanriots! Flown in perfect synchrony they make for one 7" wide monster plane that deals damage like a 50mm gatling on wings. Nothing can survive within its sights, especially once it gets on your tail. Whee, I'm on your tail! BOOM BOOM BOOM, you die. Next?

All the other players swore, "Never again!"

At this point I'm thinking of reverting the Ufags to A/A decks for grand melee. Their limited maneuverability effectively limits them to just orbiting the field trying to catch other planes in their crossfire. The A/A damage no longer seems so unbalanced now that we have an idea of how to counter them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re:blocked line of sight
First, about the 2 seater rear gun using the front arc to help estabish the blind spot-- I played with that last weekend and it worked wonderfully.

Second, has anyone noticed that the Hanroit deck is basically just a Camel deck with a lethal side slip? No wonder it is so dangerous.
Tip-- play with only the B gun versions. That should help balance and is more appropriate to the maneuverability of the plane.

Third-- not mentioned-- has anyone noticed that the N 11 maneuver deck is the same as the Halberstadt, except for a side slip that the Halberstadt does not have?

I might expect the N 11 to have a better turn (but be a bit slower on the straights.)

Hmmm.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
Re:blocked line of sight
kduke (#483127),

Quote:
First, about the 2 seater rear gun using the front arc to help estabish the blind spot-- I played with that last weekend and it worked wonderfully.


Good to hear. It works well for us as well.

The Hanriot maneuver deck is basically a C deck (Sopwith Camel) with the following changes:

-- Remove two 90 degree hard rights.

-- Add one 90 degree hard left

-- Add a pair of vicious card-long side slips

I was surprised that the two hard turns were not steep maneuvers. Unlike the Camels, a Hanriot can't U-turn in two cards (it doesn't have enough hard lefts or rights), but it can do one hard right or left every set of 3 maneuvers which is often enough.

Quote:
Tip -- play w (card-long) and with only the B gun versions. That should help balance and is more appropriate to the maneuverability of the plane.


I like the Hanriots, but I've also found them very easy for novice players to fly poorly, and thus fly them into the ground. In capable hands tho the Hanriot is a very effective plane. It can be particularly hard to stay on the tail of a Hanriot and very hard to get one off your tail.

However I've not found them particularly unbalanced. Maybe marginally, but not massively, not with players of good skill flying the other planes. If I had to make a balance correction for grand melee style games, it might be to drop the total damage for a Hanriot a couple points, but that's about it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrea Angiolino
Italy
Rome
European Union
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kduke wrote:
wouldn't you like the possibility of an A-shooting UFAG?


The problem with German and Austrian machineguns is that they had very combersome loaders - it was impossible to put two one besid the other for the observer. So they all fired with single machineguns on the rear.

Usually they also had a single machinegun ahead, if any. There has been a single Ufag with two machineuns on the front and one at the rear and I wished to include it, but since we decided to include only machines that sawservice at the front we avoided to put it in the game. We are actually a bit more free with promo cards - let's see in the future.

kduke wrote:
Second, has anyone noticed that the Hanroit deck is basically just a Camel deck with a lethal side slip? No wonder it is so dangerous.
Tip-- play with only the B gun versions. That should help balance and is more appropriate to the maneuverability of the plane.


Actually, as I posted somewhere else,
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geekforum.php3?action=viewthrea...
the fear of loosing maneuverability because of a second MG on the Hanriot was pretty common, and that was why no Belgian pilot added one except for Coppens for a very few days. But the Italian ace Silvio Scaroni demonstrated that it was worth to put a second one...

And after all, if you consider it quite close in maneuverability to the camel that had always two machineguns...

One thinh I'd like to point out: we give historically accurate cards, but you can do whatever you prefer. Just fly the two seaters pretending they have two machineguns in each firing arc... and be happy with that. We do not give three people, all against all scenarios: but people like to play that way, and that's perfecty for us!

Bye and thanks to everybody for the continuing interest in our little game!

Andrea

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.