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Subject: Question regarding ally losses rss

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Matt Williams
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A situation occurred at the weekend to which we had no clear answer.

Player A had two control tokens and a Fort in the German states. He was allied with Player B who had one army there. Player C attacked Player A and the result was a tie. That means that Player A did not lose a control token but both Player A and Player C SHOULD lose a unit.

However, the rules state that forts cannot be lost. So, the question was, does the ally (Player B) lose his army instead?
 
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Inno Van
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Allying with forts.
Hmm. Good one.

Does allying with a player that has only a fort mean the ally loses their army if there's a tie?

This could make forts more dangerous to ally with than armies, or more safe.
 
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Chris Shaffer
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Re:Allying with forts.
I would argue that the special ability of forts is "not lost in ties." Forts can 'absorb' hits from ties. Making the ally take the loss would negate the special ability of the fort. Thus, I would argue that the ally shouldn't take the loss.

That said, if there was a tie and the defender rolled a seven, the fort should absorb the hit from the tie and the ally should take the loss from the seven. Right?
 
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Paul Sauberer
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Re:Allying with forts.
TheCat (#466919),

Forts can only "absorb" hits from ties if they are the only unit for the defender. If a player had an army and a fort, they would lose the army in a tie. There is nothing in the rules to indicate otherwise. Since allies attack and defend together, if there is just a fort and an allied army, the ally would lose its unit, I believe.
 
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Inno Van
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Re:Allying with forts.
The rules state

In the case of a tie both sides lose a unit but the defender does not lose a control token. A fort is never lost in a tie, no matter what the circumstances are.

Martin Wallace has since clarified the order for losing units:
He loses an army if possible, and if not that then a fort if possible, if not that then nothing. (note that it is not possible to lose a fort in the event of tie, only by losing the combat or natural 7 roll)

Paul makes a good point. If you have no allies and have an army and a fort, in a tie you'd lose your own army and keep the fort. It seems unreasonable that normally you'd lose your own army, but in the absence of your own army an ally wouldn't.






 
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Jerry McVicker
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Re:Question regarding ally losses
Stark (#466821),


The fort doesn't stop you from losing a unit if you have one to lose in the battle. The allied army fulfilled that role, so therefore it is lost.
 
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Inno Van
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Re:Question regarding ally losses
Would this wording be more clear?

At most 2 units can be lost in a combat. First lose 1 unit if the combat roll was a loss or tie, then lose one unit if the combat roll was a natural 7. Lose units in the order below until loss total fulfilled, skipping absent categories:

One from player army
One from ally army
2nd from player army
2nd from ally army
One from player forts (defender only, never from a tie)
2nd from player forts (again defender only, never from a tie)
then nothing.

Winning a battle is sufficient to take a Control Token. It is not necessary to eliminate the Defender.

 
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ressukka
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Re:Question regarding ally losses
Innovan wrote:
Would this wording be more clear?

At most 2 units can be lost in a combat. First lose 1 unit if the combat roll was a loss or tie, then lose one unit if the combat roll was a natural 7. Lose units in the order below until loss total fulfilled, skipping absent categories:

One from player army
One from ally army
2nd from player army
2nd from ally army
One from player forts (defender only, never from a tie)
2nd from player forts (again defender only, never from a tie)
then nothing.

Winning a battle is sufficient to take a Control Token. It is not necessary to eliminate the Defender.

From the rules: "If the losing player rolled a '7' and they had an allied player fighting with them then the additional unit eliminated must belong to that allied player. "

//2nd from player army
//2nd from ally army

Shouldn't this be then viceversa? Ally loses a unit if 7 is rolled..
 
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Inno Van
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>Shouldn't this be then viceversa? Ally loses a unit if 7 is rolled..

No, that's over simplifying it. For example, you and an ally win a battle, but roll a 7. You take the single loss, your ally takes nothing.

There's other weird cases covered by my losses order: You with no ally. No units of your own/only ally units.

Take it from one who tried writing it all out: There's a lot of permutations.
 
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Dave Heberer
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Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean that really got out of hand fast.
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When did Wallace clarify the rules in this way? The way I read the rules, you never lose a fort in combat. It stays there always, which can be quite problematic when you have a fort in a country that you no longer have any control markers in. If forts are just lost 'last' I don't have to consider where to place them so much anymore, as they will eventually come back to me in hard pressed fighting.
 
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Inno Van
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The rules state forts are not destroyed in a tie. They're still destroyed if you lose.

Martin Wallace made the clarification on the order for how units are lost here on bgg. The new layout Aldie is trying makes it very difficult to find the old post though --you're free to hunt and peck if you want to verify.
 
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