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Subject: APBA Soccer Board Game Rules Posted rss

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chuckster williams
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The APBA Game Co. has posted the rules for their upcoming soccer board game on Delphi Forums. The game appears to be well thought out and designed by someone (uncredited so far) who really knows soccer (football!) For example, their are several adjustments made to favor the home team. Judging by the rules, I would guess the game will be playable in about 60 to 70 minutes. Check it out.

P.S. For us non-soccer fans certain pro soccer rules like the number of substutions and yellow & red cards are clearly spelled out.
 
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Thom0909
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I'm curious about this. Not my favorite sport sim game maker, but this would be about the only game going.

It looks like you can buy EPL, MLS, World CUP or UEFA Champions League team sets for $20 a pop.
 
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Brandon Pennington
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You guys have a direct link?
 
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chuckster williams
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Try this link -

http://forums.delphiforums.com/apbabtl/messages/?msg=34526.1


I'm no computer geek, so good luck with it!
 
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Chris Atkins
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I am cautiously optimistic after reading the rules.

I think some clarifications will be in order, as is natural.

The rules make no mention of a pitch. Without a pitch, I think it will be fairly hard to keep track of what area the ball is in.

I do believe most games will take 50-60 minutes to play, or more, as there will be at least 180 (!) actions taken per game.

The rules do not allow you to select who will take penalty kicks or direct free kicks. I believe it will be easy to create a house rule to allow any player to take a penalty kick; not sure if it will work to create a house rule allowing any player to take a direct free kick.

Can't wait to play!
 
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chuckster williams
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Chris, all APBA games include a playing field. I am sure an area denoted pitch will be included. The real nice thing about APBA games they are easy to add house rules too. Without seeing the charts, some rules are a little unclear (e.g. when can you switch formations?) But maybe that stuff is denoted on the charts.
 
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Brandon Pennington
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I agree, I am optimistic. I have never played a game like this, be it APBA or any of the others, so it is new territory for me, but if they the EPL and it is fairly up to date and accurate, I will be buying for sure.
 
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chuckster williams
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Brandon, if this is your first tabletop sports simulation, beforewarned, you may find it very frustrating and overwhelming at first. Generally by the 3rd or 4th game, however, you'll have the hang of it.And if you don't agree with a player's rating just change it to your liking (it's done all the time.) I own the APBA hockey and golf games, and this game seems to be modeled after them. If so, this game will be a real winner. But don't get me wrong, APBA has produced some turkeys (their basketball game - long out of print - was probably the worst tabletop game ever!) But like all games you just never know until you start rolling the dice...but I have faith in this soccer game.
 
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Brandon Pennington
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Well after reading the rules it seemed pretty straight forward. Lots of chucking dice and table references, but nothing more than any wargame I play
 
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Chris Atkins
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Two comments, re: the rules relating to player position.

First, I didn't see anything in the rules relating to specific positions for players. For example, the rules only mention 'midfielders" and 'defenders.' No distinction is made between central midfielders and left/right sided midfielders, nor is any distinction made between central defenders and right/left backs. It would be odd (and unrealistic) if the game allowed you to play a 4-4-2 with, say, 4 central defenders.

Second, the rules require you to pick 1 of 3 formations (4-4-2, 4-5-1, or 4-3-3) but then intimate that the formation you pick does not constrain the number of position players you choose. In the rules, it says that you could play a 4-4-2 with 4 defenders, 4 attackers and 2 midfielders. I find that very odd, and again somewhat unrealistic if true.
 
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chuckster williams
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I guess the designer had to draw the line someplace or the game would get too complex. To be honest with you, I really don't care about that kind of detail. I guess you could house rule in kind of left/right factor. Overall, if it does what the hockey does, you will find your stats realistic and better teams winning most of time. That is all I am looking for.

I think you need to keep in mind this is not true play by play game and the three types of defenses depicted may actually represent a bit more. But it sounds like you really know soccer. I basically don't know squat about it. So I am not disputing what you say. I do think the game will be fun to play and very friendly to house rules.
 
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Chris Atkins
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One more concern: it does not appear that players are individually rated for defense. Rather, a team defense rating is supplied.

Question: if the quality of my defense depends mostly on my team defense rating, why wouldn't I always play my best offensively rated defenders and midfielders?

To clarify, take two real players for Chelsea: Frank Lampard and Michael Essien. Lampard is an attacking midfielder that scores lots of goals. Essien is a defensive midfielder that doesn't score a lot.

If neither player is rated individually for defense, and the Chelsea team is given a team defense rating that is fixed, wouldn't it make sense to play Lampard over Essien in nearly all cases?
 
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Chris Atkins
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Yeah, I will admit that I prefer more detail rather than less. I also prefer to see a game that requires you to place a player in his natural position. You rarely if ever see a team field four central defenders or four central midfielders. Maybe you will be limited in that respect by the number of players available.

 
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chuckster williams
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I must admit I was taken aback by all players have the same defensive rating. My guess is, it be will the action column on their cards that will bring out these factors. But that is just a guess. Remember there are 50 different Action Result Numbers. Maybe your better shooting player will turn the ball over more (see DEF) and you better defensive player will be a better ball handler (see A-X and H results.) Again I must admit it sounds a little strange, but without a clue what charts look like, maybe it will actually work. Given the detail found in the rulebook, I think this guy (or gal!) really knows soccer. I can't imagine the defensive side of things was just thrown in at the last minute. But I guess we will find out in a week or two.
 
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Chris Atkins
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Fair point but a player only gets to take an action if they already have possession of the ball, which means they are by definition on offense.
 
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chuckster williams
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Yes, I'm afraid the abstracted team defense rating is going to turn some people off and that's too bad. There are so precious few GOOD soccer games out there (epecially with individual player cards.) Overall, however, the rulebook does give me a positive feeling and not a sinking one.
 
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Chris Atkins
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I actually like the concept of a team defense rating that can be used to help generate what happens on the pitch. I just think that rating should be derived from the players selected by the manager, not abstracted.
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chuckster williams
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I agree with you. But it is what it is. APBA does supply lineup sheets with their games. Personally (since I don't know one dude from another) I will use the lineup sheets to set my starting 11. However I am going to go on Delphi Forums and see if the designer will adress the team defense rating vs. individual rating.
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Matt Crawford
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cdatkins wrote:
First, I didn't see anything in the rules relating to specific positions for players. For example, the rules only mention 'midfielders" and 'defenders.' No distinction is made between central midfielders and left/right sided midfielders, nor is any distinction made between central defenders and right/left backs. It would be odd (and unrealistic) if the game allowed you to play a 4-4-2 with, say, 4 central defenders.

Second, the rules require you to pick 1 of 3 formations (4-4-2, 4-5-1, or 4-3-3) but then intimate that the formation you pick does not constrain the number of position players you choose. In the rules, it says that you could play a 4-4-2 with 4 defenders, 4 attackers and 2 midfielders. I find that very odd, and again somewhat unrealistic if true.


I understand what you're getting at, but definitely part of the problem with positions in soccer is that they aren't strict at all, not like positions in American football, as I'm sure you know. So that's a real problem if you require exact positions in a soccer game. In real-life, a guy might be listed as a midfielder but might play an attacking role half the game, then move back to another spot. He might be a defenseman on his club team and a midfielder on the national team. Left/right sides aren't strict either.

Probably it's better to think of the "formations" as "strategies" which is the purpose they actually serve in the game -- Aggressive, Normal, or Defensive. But your point about always playing the top offensive players at each position seems a good one. We'll have to see how the game actually shakes out, after we see the cards and stuff.
 
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Ken Takacs
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cdatkins wrote:
Two comments, re: the rules relating to player position.

First, I didn't see anything in the rules relating to specific positions for players. For example, the rules only mention 'midfielders" and 'defenders.' No distinction is made between central midfielders and left/right sided midfielders, nor is any distinction made between central defenders and right/left backs. It would be odd (and unrealistic) if the game allowed you to play a 4-4-2 with, say, 4 central defenders.

Second, the rules require you to pick 1 of 3 formations (4-4-2, 4-5-1, or 4-3-3) but then intimate that the formation you pick does not constrain the number of position players you choose. In the rules, it says that you could play a 4-4-2 with 4 defenders, 4 attackers and 2 midfielders. I find that very odd, and again somewhat unrealistic if true.


I see what you are saying, but I think this view is a bit picky for several reasons:

(1) while playing 4 central midfielders in defense would be odd, it is not uncommon for a coach to place players in positions in which they normally do not play. One sees a right or left back playing as a central defender, or a defender playing in the midfield, for example. It depends what the coach wants to do based upon his/her view of what is best for the team at the time based upon available personnel, injuries, tactics, etc. If for some reason a coach wants to use 4 players who normally play as center backs on the field, he/she has that option. Is that common? Of course not. Is it smart? It depends. Is it unrealistic? Not necessarily.

(2) Playing 4 center backs might be possible in APBA Soccer, but that does not mean it would be a wise thing to do in the game. Using the usual starting left and right back will probably be a better tactical choice than using 2 usually non-starting central defenders because the former will probably have better stats overall than the latter. Players are rated based upon such things as offense, shots on goal, assists, injuries, and actions. I would think that the typical starting players would have better ratings in those categories. In addition, note that the injury rating also indicates which players played more games during the season. Further, since there are no individual defense ratings, it could be foolish to leave your best players on the bench and use 4 central defenders. You could do that, but why?

(3) Adding additional rules restricting the types of players you can have on the field just adds more complexity. Moreover, based upon the above observations, such rules may be totally unnecessary.

(4) Gamers who are into the teams they like will probably want to field the team using the typical roster. Maybe I could field 4 central defenders, but I would probably want to field the typical right and left backs in there instead. That seems more natural.

In the end, while your point is a valid consideration, I don't think it would affect things that much, and to me at least would certainly not be a reason to not purchase the game.
 
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Chris Atkins
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kenntak wrote:
cdatkins wrote:
Two comments, re: the rules relating to player position.

First, I didn't see anything in the rules relating to specific positions for players. For example, the rules only mention 'midfielders" and 'defenders.' No distinction is made between central midfielders and left/right sided midfielders, nor is any distinction made between central defenders and right/left backs. It would be odd (and unrealistic) if the game allowed you to play a 4-4-2 with, say, 4 central defenders.

Second, the rules require you to pick 1 of 3 formations (4-4-2, 4-5-1, or 4-3-3) but then intimate that the formation you pick does not constrain the number of position players you choose. In the rules, it says that you could play a 4-4-2 with 4 defenders, 4 attackers and 2 midfielders. I find that very odd, and again somewhat unrealistic if true.


I see what you are saying, but I think this view is a bit picky for several reasons:

(1) while playing 4 central midfielders in defense would be odd, it is not uncommon for a coach to place players in positions in which they normally do not play. One sees a right or left back playing as a central defender, or a defender playing in the midfield, for example. It depends what the coach wants to do based upon his/her view of what is best for the team at the time based upon available personnel, injuries, tactics, etc. If for some reason a coach wants to use 4 players who normally play as center backs on the field, he/she has that option. Is that common? Of course not. Is it smart? It depends. Is it unrealistic? Not necessarily.

(2) Playing 4 center backs might be possible in APBA Soccer, but that does not mean it would be a wise thing to do in the game. Using the usual starting left and right back will probably be a better tactical choice than using 2 usually non-starting central defenders because the former will probably have better stats overall than the latter. Players are rated based upon such things as offense, shots on goal, assists, injuries, and actions. I would think that the typical starting players would have better ratings in those categories. In addition, note that the injury rating also indicates which players played more games during the season. Further, since there are no individual defense ratings, it could be foolish to leave your best players on the bench and use 4 central defenders. You could do that, but why?


To your first comment, there is a reason why EPL teams go 2-3 deep at every position: because they like to play the right type of player in their chosen formation(s). Picking a formation means having a certain type of player to play at each position...you can't really play a 4-4-2 without playing 2 wingbacks, 2 center backs, 2 central midfielders and 2 left/right sided midfielders. Just like you can't play a 4 guard lineup in basketball without 4 guards, or a 3-4 defense in football without 4 linebackers. And yet the game appears to allow you to play a 4-4-2 without deploying the correct positional players. I just think that is very unrealistic.
 
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chuckster williams
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I think the gentleman in an earlier comment may be closer to actual design intent. One formation represents an aggressive strategy, one a neutral strategy and one a defensive strategy. It just sounds a lot neater to use 4-4-2, etc. Besides that, I think many players are going to use the rosters provided by APBA (they do include them in all their games.) I know next to nothing about soccer, but I will try to play it as realistically as possible. In order to keep the design playable I think this is the approach the game's designer took (or at least I think so.) If some guy wants use 6 forwards or whatever, well its his game. Personally I think the system is going to achieve its ultimate goal (excuse the pun) - a fun game to play that gives you believable results.
 
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