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Subject: Industrialist wording rss

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Geoff Speare
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Reading the wording on The Warp, this seems significantly better than Warrior (not strictly better, but still). Warrior goes up by 1-2, this will be going up by a lot more.

 
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Jefferson Krogh
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I haven't yet played it, but Industrialist looks a bit tricky to play. To create a stack, you need to lose. So you need to play Attack cards which are "just good enough to lose," if you can. If your opponent lets you win anyway, that's even better than having a stack, perhaps.
 
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Geoff Speare
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Exactly -- so you either win (the horror!) or you get, in one loss, a permanent bonus which is probably 5-6x what Warrior gets.

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Just a Bill
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galfridus wrote:
Exactly -- so you either win (the horror!) or you get, in one loss, a permanent bonus which is probably 5-6x what Warrior gets.

That's how it seems to me, too.

I just played Warrior on CEO last night; in online play he gets twice as many experience points as the FFG version and even that didn't help me much ... so I'm definitely more interested in playing Industrialist. Unless I'm overlooking some balancer, this version seems profoundly stronger than Mayfair's and gives Warrior a case of stack envy.

I'm also wondering how the Industrialist-Loser interaction is supposed to work; seems like an infinite loop:

1. Loser declares upset.
2. Cards are revealed and Industrialist wins.
3. Any other game effects resolve.
4. Upset makes Industrialist lose.
5. Industrialist is about to stack his card.
6. Loser says "I let you win instead of stacking your card."
7. Industrialist now wins and therefore loses (because Loser's power emphatically "occurs after all other game effects are resolved".)
8. Return to step 5.
 
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Geoff Speare
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Bill Martinson wrote:

1. Loser declares upset.
2. Cards are revealed and Industrialist wins.
3. Any other game effects resolve.
4. Upset makes Industrialist lose.
5. Industrialist is about to stack his card.
6. Loser says "I let you win instead of stacking your card."
7. Industrialist now wins and therefore loses (because Loser's power emphatically "occurs after all other game effects are resolved".)
8. Return to step 5.


If Loser emphatically occurs after all other game effects, then I would say that step 7 happens too late for Industrialist to again stack their card.
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This version of Industrialist is clearly broken, the power should be discarding the entire stack after winning as a main player and this one doesn't.
 
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Geoff Speare
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Messianic wrote:
This version of Industrialist is clearly broken, the power should be discarding the entire stack after winning as a main player and this one doesn't.


That would explain the references to "faceup" cards in the stack, when there is no mechanism to turn cards facedown...

 
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Jefferson Krogh
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Messianic wrote:
This version of Industrialist is clearly broken, the power should be discarding the entire stack after winning as a main player and this one doesn't.


Should, according to whom? This is not the same Industrialist that Mayfair published.

I'm seeing several people raise objections to this power, but no one seems to have played it yet.
 
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Just a Bill
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Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
I'm seeing several people raise objections to this power, but no one seems to have played it yet.

You don't have to play a power to be able to see issues with the design or wording. (This doesn't necessarily mean I agree with the power being "broken"; I'm just saying a person doesn't always have to drive a car to see that the tires are flat, the outline is goofy, or the engine is incorrectly sized.)
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Just a Bill
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galfridus wrote:
If Loser emphatically occurs after all other game effects, then I would say that step 7 happens too late for Industrialist to again stack their card.

Can you elaborate? I don't follow you. Whenever Indy loses he gets to stack his card, so I don't see how Loser's timing would prevent that.
 
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Jack Reda
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I posted this on the FFG boards as well, but we played Industrialist twice last night, and it wasn't a winner either time. I didn't see it as broken going in, and its performance reinforces that feeling. Not that I think it's bad. Indeed, to me it sounds like a better power than the Mayfair version, and I think it performed better as well. But it was certainly not so so strong that it couldn't be stopped. It did all right, but I think in one game it ended with 3 foreign colonies, and maybe had 4 in the other game (but then so did everyone else).

Remember, it has to LOSE in order to get any cards in the stack- and more cards are added only when it keeps losing. Losing does nothing to help you win in most cases.
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Jefferson Krogh
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Bill Martinson wrote:
Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
I'm seeing several people raise objections to this power, but no one seems to have played it yet.

You don't have to play a power to be able to see issues with the design or wording. (This doesn't necessarily mean I agree with the power being "broken"; I'm just saying a person doesn't always have to drive a car to see that the tires are flat, the outline is goofy, or the engine is incorrectly sized.)


But this isn't a car, it's Cosmic Encounter. The inner workings of this game are a lot more subtle, man. Remember, this is the game where Philanthropist seems like the lamest, weakest, dumbest power in the whole game until you actually play with it a few times. Virus seems like an unstoppable powerhouse when you read it, and it's not.

I don't know for myself if this Industrialist is broken or not. I haven't tried it yet. That's all I'm trying to say. This game is designed to confound first impressions, and yet I see all these veteran players falling into the first impression trap.

Jack, thanks for sharing your group's experience with it. (You also pointed out on the FFG thread that the text is correct, and this is the way it's supposed to work now.)
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Jack Reda
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My friend Matt read it the power and said "wow". He read it again to make sure it did what it said it did. He'd never played the older version though. So, while I felt the new version was stronger, I was in the "wait and see" mode.

That was the game where Industrialist didn't fare as well as the other aliens with only 3 colonies (which, for the record were Mimic, The Claw, and Empath as the winners, and Visionary at 4. In fact, Industrialist only had 1 card in his stack (attack 08). We played with moons in that game, and you needed to occupy one in order to win as well. Who knows who that affected things (I don't think it did much), but by the end, no one was thinking that Industrialist was the new Virus.

In the second game (a multipower game), it had 4 colonies in the end, but everyone did by then, and I think it still only had a grand total of +12- but it was a game that also had Anti-Virus, Warpish and Citadel, so the matchups were still pretty even.
 
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Jefferson Krogh
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I don't remember many details of my 15-year-old plays with my Mayfair set (aside from always having to look up what those damned timing icons meant), but I do recall playing the Industrialist. It was frustrating, like playing at half speed. Lose an encounter to win the next encounter. One step back, two steps forward. I know I didn't win.

So I can see why it was revised.

Anyway, the REAL powerhouse in Cosmic Conflict is a two-power combo of Visionary & The Claw. Run awaaaaaaay!
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Geoff Speare
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I don't think it's unbalanced overall, but it does seem better than Warrior. I'd hate to have a new player get Warrior and feel overshadowed.

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Geoff Speare
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Bill Martinson wrote:
galfridus wrote:
If Loser emphatically occurs after all other game effects, then I would say that step 7 happens too late for Industrialist to again stack their card.

Can you elaborate? I don't follow you. Whenever Indy loses he gets to stack his card, so I don't see how Loser's timing would prevent that.


One way of breaking/preventing a loop is establishing a priority of the involved items -- if they are supposed to fire in a given order, then the loop can be prevented.

Since there is an established order here (Loser goes last, always), it seems that Industrialist stacking his card a second time would be violating this. Once Loser does its thing, other powers can't go as Loser would then not be last.

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll rule some other way in the FAQ and there will be some interesting justifications.

 
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Jack Reda
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There's no loop. If Loser declares an upset, then you determine who won the encounter. If, because Industrialist had a higher total, he would have won, but loses because of upset, then he lost the encounter. Since he lost, Loser must either hand the win back over to Industrialist or the card is added to the stack. That's it.
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Just a Bill
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So Loser's power should be interpreted as "This occurs after all other game effects are resolved (such as the Human's power being zapped), except for Industrialist being allowed to win in lieu of stacking a card." That seems to fix it.
 
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Geoff Speare
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The Warp wrote:
There's no loop. If Loser declares an upset, then you determine who won the encounter. If, because Industrialist had a higher total, he would have won, but loses because of upset, then he lost the encounter. Since he lost, Loser must either hand the win back over to Industrialist or the card is added to the stack. That's it.


I guess I see it the opposite way: since Loser must go last...

a) If Industrialist wins due to all effects but Loser, Loser makes it a loss.

b) If Industrialist loses due to all effects but Loser, the "stack or handover" effect must come next (since Loser must go last). If Loser allows the stacking, Loser flips the loss into a win for Industrialist. If Loser lets Industrialist "win" instead, Loser flips the win into a loss. (Not a tough choice. )

I always hate "this applies last" wordings, since eventually someone forgets and puts two of them in the game, but since the text is there this seems like the appropriate way to follow it.

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Mi Myma
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Bill Martinson wrote:
I'm also wondering how the Industrialist-Loser interaction is supposed to work; seems like an infinite loop:

1. Loser declares upset.
2. Cards are revealed and Industrialist wins.
3. Any other game effects resolve.
4. Upset makes Industrialist lose.
5. Industrialist is about to stack his card.
6. Loser says "I let you win instead of stacking your card."
7. Industrialist now wins and therefore loses (because Loser's power emphatically "occurs after all other game effects are resolved".)
8. Return to step 5.

This can't be right, because the Loser's power is triggering twice: in #4 and #7. If it has to happen after all other effects, then it can't happen in #4. I guess that's the point.
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Just a Bill
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
This can't be right, because the Loser's power is triggering twice: in #4 and #7. If it has to happen after all other effects, then it can't happen in #4. I guess that's the point.

Exactly. At the end of step 3, all other effects have resolved, so the upset must make Industrialist lose. This then triggers more game effects that retroactively make it so that the upset shouldn't have happened yet (even though it had to at the time), and/or make the upset happen again. It's a contradiction that will lead to unending arguments, since both views are reasonably arguable.

Damned paradoxes; ain't that always the rub with time travel?

Maybe the resolution is that Loser, in letting Industrialist win, is "letting" him ignore the upset. It doesn't seem right that he can undo his mandatory power, though. So maybe Loser "lets Industrialist lose" so he can really win? Nah, these are crappy rationalizations and I'm ashamed I suggested them.
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Geoff Speare
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At that point you know there's another effect which will affect the outcome, so Loser should not trigger.
 
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Just a Bill
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galfridus wrote:
At that point you know there's another effect which will affect the outcome, so Loser should not trigger.

How can you truly know that, since it involves a human decision that can go either way? This is making my head hurt.
 
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galfridus wrote:
I don't think it's unbalanced overall, but it does seem better than Warrior. I'd hate to have a new player get Warrior and feel overshadowed.



Yeah, that's the issue. Whether it's too strong or whatever is not that big of a deal. Even if it is, there are other powers that are too strong, so one more won't hurt.

The problem is that it has obsoleted a perfectly good thematic power that had a decent strength level. It uses essentially the same mechanic, but adds +X instead of +2 (where X will almost always be substantially higher than 2). Not only that, Industrialist can add or subtract, whereas Warrior can only add. Irritating....

There are three trivial advantages for Warrior: (1) gains +1 when he wins, whereas Industrialist gains nothing, (2) gains tokens from losing with a Negotiate, whereas Industrialist only gains from losing with an Attack, and (3) Industrialists stack-growth can be prevented by letting him win, whereas Warrior's growth is unstoppable. I don't see how these minor things begin to make up for the extra power of Industrialist.

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Rubric wrote:
[a good analysis that I agree with]

A (4)th trivial advantage for Warrior is that his tokens aren't all wiped out by a Cosmic Quake. (This is according to Kevin's Quake ruling we learned about today, a ruling I find just about as irritating as the apparent obsolescence of Warrior.)
 
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