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Subject: South Dakota to consider bill that would legalize murder of abortion providers rss

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MGK
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Wait, what?

(link)
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Just Jeff
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This is one of the most ridiculous, misguided, right-wing extremist moves I have ever seen. Shame on you supporters of this bill.
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Mac Mcleod
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But it's consistent. If you believe abortion is murder (and it's a defensible position) then why wouldn't you prosecute it as murder.

We allow abortion because the consequences of illegal abortion were horrific. And probably to some extent because the wealthy were able to get it safely anyway which made it's illegality hard to defend..

---
Post Script added later.
Ah.. I thought this was state sponsored punishment, not allowing vigilantism. Bad path to start down.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Now ask yourself whether describing it as a "bill that would legalize murder of abortion providers" is really an accurate description.


Italicizing the parts of the proposed amendment that are relevant:

"Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person in the lawful defense of such person, or of his or her husband, wife, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant, or the unborn child of any such enumerated person, if there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony, or to do some great personal injury, and imminent danger of such design being."

The first bit legalizes the murder. The second bit extends justifiable self-defense homicide to protection of a fetus with a familial relationship, exclusive of whether or not the carrying mother is similarly endangered. The third bit makes it quite clear that you don't even have to be committing a felonious act in order to be a target of justifiable homicide so long as you're committing an injurious act against said fetus, and an abortion would certainly qualify. The final bit, based on general criminal law precedents throughout United States common law, would likely enable someone to kill an abortion provider if that person was to perform an abortion on said fetus even not at the time but was to do so shortly (say, within the next day or so).

This isn't some ginned-up conspiracy theory, Drew. This is nothing less than an attempt to legalize vigilantism and murder in the name of the pro-life movement.
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Chad Ellis
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mightygodking wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Now ask yourself whether describing it as a "bill that would legalize murder of abortion providers" is really an accurate description.


...

This isn't some ginned-up conspiracy theory, Drew. This is nothing less than an attempt to legalize vigilantism and murder in the name of the pro-life movement.


I think Drew has a point, mainly because you've exaggerated the bill. To be specific, you're attributing a superset of what the bill actually allows.

"Legalizing murder of abortion providers" implies that it would be legal for me to gun down a random abortion provider on the street.
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Daniel Edwards
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Seems like lots of grey areas here.

Can I blow up the whole abortion clinic or just gun down the doctors? If the doctor promises not to do it anymore can I still go ahead and chop of his hands? If I think a factory is polluting the local water supply and thus increasing the prospect that my wife will miscarry can I shoot the whole board of directors?

They really need to think about this some more and clarify these.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
"Legalizing murder of abortion providers" implies that it would be legal for me to gun down a random abortion provider on the street.


Under this law, Chad, if you believed he was going to his clinic to abort a fetus to which you had some relation, it would be. The bill is repugnant, and I have pretty much zero patience for the "oh you're exaggerating how bad it is" complaint because this is about as bad as a law can reasonably get.
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This is why we fly over Flyover Country.
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mightygodking wrote:
Wait, what?

(link)

Is there a less.. um... tabloidesque source for this issue?
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Ben Foy
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Now ask yourself whether describing it as a "bill that would legalize murder of abortion providers" is really an accurate description.


...

This isn't some ginned-up conspiracy theory, Drew. This is nothing less than an attempt to legalize vigilantism and murder in the name of the pro-life movement.


I think Drew has a point, mainly because you've exaggerated the bill. To be specific, you're attributing a superset of what the bill actually allows.

"Legalizing murder of abortion providers" implies that it would be legal for me to gun down a random abortion provider on the street.


If Joe (fictional name) finds out his granddaughter is going to get an abortion and shoots the provider. That homicide would be justified under this bill.
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Ben Foy
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whac3 wrote:
Is there a less.. um... tabloidesque source for this issue?


Drew posted a link.
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whac3 wrote:
Is there a less.. um... tabloidesque source for this issue?


Setting aside the issue of whether Mother Jones is "tabloidesque" for the moment, the story contains a link to the actual proposed amendment itself and Drew has also provided that link. The amendment itself is remarkably straightforward.
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Mike Waleke
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I had an interesting thought, if the bill allows one to kill someone who is going to harm a fetus, could you in fact shoot the mother of said fetus if she were in fact about to down an entire bottle of vodka? Or maybe shoot the person you just had a one night stand with because she was about to pop the morning after pill. Slippery slope arguments are so much fun.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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It's not worded the best, and I trust they'll work that out. However, there is no need to get hysterical about it and attribute intent that just isn't there.

This kind of hysterics from both sides is why it's impossible to have a reasonable political discussion anymore.
 
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Clay
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Page 1 can slide by while we iron out the language, but I truly hope nobody is defending this by the time the second page gets here.
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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madmanw wrote:
I had an interesting thought, if the bill allows one to kill someone who is going to harm a fetus, could you in fact shoot the mother of said fetus if she were in fact about to down an entire bottle of vodka? Or maybe shoot the person you just had a one night stand with because she was about to pop the morning after pill. Slippery slope arguments are so much fun.


Yes, and then you're entitled to shoot yourself to prevent yourself from shooting the mother.
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The "Servent, Master, Mistress" part has me curious. Will this mean that if I own a company and one of my employees decides to get an abortion, that i can shoot the doctor?
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Dispaminite wrote:
The "Servent, Master, Mistress" part has me curious. Will this mean that if I own a company and one of my employees decides to get an abortion, that i can shoot to the doctor?


Seems like a lot of room for interpretation. I think the safest bet is never to go to South Dakota.
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So I have an affair, and knock up my mistress. She decides she's going to keep the kid because she wants to take me to court for child support.

I can kill her, and claim it was in defense of the fetus because she was going to get an abortion, and that could be a justifiable defense?
 
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Dispaminite wrote:
So I have an affair, and knock up my mistress. She decides she's going to keep the kid because she wants to take me to court for child support.

I can kill her, and claim it was in defense of the fetus because she was going to get an abortion, and that could be a justifiable defense?


Not any more than any other murder that you conspire to cover up.
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Dickie Crickets
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"South Dakota: shoot it on her face, so we don't have to shoot you in yours."
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ejmowrer wrote:
Dispaminite wrote:
So I have an affair, and knock up my mistress. She decides she's going to keep the kid because she wants to take me to court for child support.

I can kill her, and claim it was in defense of the fetus because she was going to get an abortion, and that could be a justifiable defense?


Not any more than any other murder that you conspire to cover up.


I'm not saying it's going to work, I'm just asking if I could claim it during my trial.
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So if my daughter gets raped, and that rape results in a pregency, then my wife and daughter decide to get an abortion which I've objected to, I can shoot my wife and the doctor to prevent the abortion, and get the added bonus of not having my nagging wife around any more?
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ejmowrer wrote:
It's not worded the best, and I trust they'll work that out. However, there is no need to get hysterical about it and attribute intent that just isn't there.

This kind of hysterics from both sides is why it's impossible to have a reasonable political discussion anymore.


Eric, there's basically no other possible intent. The previous iteration of the law already extended the justifiable homicide defense to anybody trying to protect a fetus from violence directed at its carrying mother that might potentially harm it; this bill extends the justifiable homicide defense to anybody specifically trying to harm the fetus itself. Can you come up with any violent act that specifically targets a fetus other than an abortion?

The law was designed by conservative Republicans working in concert with pro-life groups. Pretending that they didn't know exactly what they were doing when they wrote this amendment is ludicrous.
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Dispaminite wrote:
So I have an affair, and knock up my mistress. She decides she's going to keep the kid because she wants to take me to court for child support.

I can kill her, and claim it was in defense of the fetus because she was going to get an abortion, and that could be a justifiable defense?


Except you kill the fetus by doing that. shake
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