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Dominion» Forums » General

Subject: Isotropic player order complaint rss

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David desJardins
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I just created two dummy users in two different browsers and logged in to Isotropic to play a test game between them.

I started a 2p game between my two dummy users ten times in a row, immediately resigning and starting a new game. In every single one of those ten games, the same player was "randomly" selected to go first. I think there's some kind of serious bias/bug here.
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Donald X.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I just created two dummy users in two different browsers and logged in to Isotropic to play a test game between them.

I started a 2p game between my two dummy users ten times in a row, immediately resigning and starting a new game. In every single one of those ten games, the same player was "randomly" selected to go first. I think there's some kind of serious bias/bug here.
It uses the rulebook rule - if the players are the same, then the player who won the last game goes last.
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David desJardins
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Ha! I guess I should have had the other player resign.
 
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Doug Z
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To be precise, any player that just lost a game will go before any player that did not just lose a game. Within the two classes of player the order is random.
 
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David desJardins
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spongyform wrote:
To be precise, any player that just lost a game will go before any player that did not just lose a game. Within the two classes of player the order is random.
Wow, I don't like that at all. It does explain a lot about my seemingly nonrandom results, in actual play, not just this fake situation.

What is the definition of "just lost"? What if my last game was 3 days ago, and I lost?
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Doug Z
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"just lost" means "you returned to the lobby from a game that you did not win".

This seems like the obvious generalization of the rulebook rule to shifting table memberships, and also takes advantage of the fact that changing the order of players around the table is free (vs reality where people would have to get up and move).

In a series of games between the same 2 people it means that the loser goes first next game. (The loser may give up his advantage by exiting the server and re-entering the lobby, but the winner can't gain an advantage by doing the same thing.) With 4 players it means the winner goes last next game and the other 3 players are ordered randomly.
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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So, if I understand correctly:

Group A: Anybody who just returned to the lobby from a game they did not win.

Group B: Anybody who just returned to the lobby from a game they won, plus anyone who just signed on.

Each of the two groups is randomly ordered, with all of the Group A players seated before any of the Group B players in turn order.

Does this also work for people who do not log in through Google or Yahoo?
 
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Nate S
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spongyform wrote:
This seems like the obvious generalization of the rulebook rule to shifting table memberships, and also takes advantage of the fact that changing the order of players around the table is free (vs reality where people would have to get up and move).
Doug, I have to say I don't like this methodology at all either. Would it be possible to restrict it only to games where all involved players just returned to the lobby from the same game? So if we play a 4p game and then one player leaves and the rest of us play a 3p game it would still apply, but if we recruited a new 4th player the turn order would be randomized anew.

As a BGGDL player, knowing this information, every time I sign on I could quickly resign against a dummy unreged player to greatly increase the chance that I will be 1st player when I go on to play a real league game. I don't want to be tempted to do this, and I don't want other players to be doing it against me.

I've long realized (and thought it a huge benefit!) that a group of players playing a series of games in a row will swap turn order so the loser goes first, but I didn't know it applied to previous games against other players.
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Myke Madsen
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ghorsche wrote:
As a BGGDL player, knowing this information, every time I sign on I could quickly resign against a dummy unreged player to greatly increase the chance that I will be 1st player when I go on to play a real league game. I don't want to be tempted to do this, and I don't want other players to be doing it against me.
That seems like an unusual amount of effort to put into getting the first-player advantage in a game of Dominion. Do you have money riding on these games or something?
 
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Rob Neuhaus
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Some people take the ladder pretty seriously.

Money is cheap, but pride, that's hard to buy?

To be fair, the BGGDL could require that all players have lost their most recent game before starting a league match. This way the BGGDL players get a random start. Of course, not following the league rules puts you at a disadvantage, but at least it doesn't seem slimy to always go into a league match having a recent loss.
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Nate S
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HappyProle wrote:
That seems like an unusual amount of effort to put into getting the first-player advantage in a game of Dominion. Do you have money riding on these games or something?
My #1 forum pet peeve is people who try to shut down an argument by telling the people actually having the discussion that they care too much about the thing they're discussing.

Please don't do that.
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Rob Neuhaus
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My three biggest bet peeves on the Dominion forums:

Variant cards that dominate or are dominated by existing cards in the game.
Variants that have never been playtested.

Reviews that measure the quality of the game by the price/number of pieces.
 
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Myke Madsen
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ghorsche wrote:
HappyProle wrote:
That seems like an unusual amount of effort to put into getting the first-player advantage in a game of Dominion. Do you have money riding on these games or something?
My #1 forum pet peeve is people who try to shut down an argument by telling the people actually having the discussion that they care too much about the thing they're discussing.

Please don't do that.
Fair point.

I wasn't so much questioning how much you care about it, rather I was questioning whether, even if they THOUGHT of doing it, someone would routinely go to that trouble.

But I probably am underestimating the lengths to which some people would go to gain an advantage at something that has a leaderboard.
 
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David desJardins
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ghorsche wrote:
As a BGGDL player, knowing this information, every time I sign on I could quickly resign against a dummy unreged player to greatly increase the chance that I will be 1st player when I go on to play a real league game. I don't want to be tempted to do this, and I don't want other players to be doing it against me.
You could also try to track whether your potential opponents just won or lost their last game, in order to decide whom to play next.

You also have much more of an incentive to stick around and play another game when you lose than when you win. So the person who plays several games in a row is going to get an advantage, on average, over the person who only has a chance to pop in quickly once in a while. And keeping your browser open and logged in, if you aren't going to play for a while, is better than exiting and coming back later.

I'm not really afraid there is going to be a huge amount of gaming this, but it all seems undesirable. Maybe you could at least turn the preference off if "league game" is checked?
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Edward
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Well, your record on your CouncilRoom page will go to shreds
 
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Dave Goldthorpe
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Perhaps it would be straightforward to find the last league match between the two opponents, whenever it was played, and use that to sort turn order. I'm assuming that multi-player player turn order in league matches just isn't relevant.
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Captain Frisk
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I for one did not realize that this was the case. I no longer rage quit after a bad beat, because I want to make use of the first player advantage. Coupled with theory's excellent level displayer in the lobby, and I can make sure I use that advantage where it will hopefully count (against someone with a rank 20 or better)


 
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Jake Eakle
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Just throwing in my agreement that this is terrible, and will change my behavior on isotropic.

It incentivizes:

a) always ending sessions on a win (because if you end your session on a loss you've given up an advantage)

b) not playing the same opponent you just beat, since there is a 100% chance of them going first

c) trying to figure out who just won a game, so you can play them

d) failing c), playing players you can easily observe to have just logged in, since you know they won't have an advantage.

Of these, b) seems the most destructive, though of course it is a result of the actual rulebook rule and not the generalization. But the rulebook was written for real people around real tables, who don't have infinite other players to choose from. Now that we do, we are being actively incentivized not to do one of the most fun things you can do at isotropic, playing a series of games against the same opponent. That is sad.

Also, Doug, since you seem to be reading this thread, you should fix the TR/KC+durations bug mentioned here.

Oh, and could we have the 'same starting hands' option available separate from the league game button? People are using that button to get that feature, which pollutes league game log data, and also it would be nice to be able to have that feature and also not play with Alchemy.
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Dave F.
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I think that using random seating for each game is OK on Isotropic, since there are a lot of games with different people. Even if 2 players play a lot against each other, they will both have their fair share of firsts.

I don't think the difficult seating assignment is not needed. Having the person to the left of the winner go first is fine for real life games where you play a couple of games with the same group and if there really is a first player advantage, then perhaps every first player will win and every one gets to go first at some point.

I would like to see complete random seating, which is also easier to implement.
 
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David desJardins
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jseakle wrote:
Also, Doug, since you seem to be reading this thread, you should fix the TR/KC+durations bug mentioned here.
Some judicious use of the word "please" might improve this posting.
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Jake Eakle
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You're absolutely right, rereading my post my tone does seem very demanding. This is the nature of unproofread text on the the internet :/

Doug, I love your website so much and obviously have no right to demand you do anything particular with it ^^ It just seemed like a straightforward case of a thing being wrong that you might not know about that you would want to fix, so I just said it without thinking too much.

Thanks for calling me out on that, David.
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