Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Innovation» Forums » Rules

Subject: Clothing - Is it checking ALL opponents, or just one of your choice? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Michael Pinnegar
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
To see how many (1)'s you score, clothing say that you check the colors melded on "any other player's board". In this phrase, other and player's are both singular, meaning that I think the literal meaning is that of a single player, but I'm not sure if the "any" part modifies it to mean all the other players together, or all the other players become individual candidates to compare your collection of colors against.

I read this in two different ways.

1. It means any other /single/ player's board.

2. It means the collective colors of every other player's board.

In situation 1, clothing is much more powerful. You activate it, meld a card, and then pick one opponent to compare colors with to see how many cards you score from (1).

In situation 2, clothing gets worse the more players are in the game. You activate it, and then you see what colors /every other player/ has. So if you've got three opponents, and person A has red, and blue, and person B has yellow, and green, then you could only score a single (1) based off of having purple out.

Jazzepi
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Børge N
Norway
Porsgrunn
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Like AI, "any player" means "all players combined".

(Otherwise, it would probably say: "Choose a player. Draw and score .. not present on that player's board.")
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wot!
United Kingdom
Reading
Berkshire
flag msg tools
badge
...i WILL own it all!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
borgemik wrote:
Like AI, "any player" means "all players combined".

(Otherwise, it would probably say: "Choose a player. Draw and score .. not present on that player's board.")


But if this was true, would the dogma not state "All other players..." rather than "Any other player's...".

I interpret the dogma to mean comparing against any other single player.

...sigh ... I am beginning to hate this game
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
G. Gambill
United States
Shawnee on Delaware
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My interpretation is any, means any, not all. "player's" is singular, otherwise it would read players' which would be the plural form. Also, note it says board, not boards. Now these are fine points/distinctions of grammar, but I usually find that if you just do EXACTLY what the card says, you will be fine. If it meant all, it would say all. Now I could be wrong, but I find that most of the rules issues with this game reflect people reading too much into the statement, rather than just following the statement. Have another go, and I'm sure these issues will fade over time leaving just enjoyment of a great game!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Børge N
Norway
Porsgrunn
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dwrigley wrote:
borgemik wrote:
Like AI, "any player" means "all players combined".

(Otherwise, it would probably say: "Choose a player. Draw and score .. not present on that player's board.")

But if this was true, would the dogma not state "All other players..." rather than "Any other player's...".

No, that means something completely different, assume the following situation:

I have colors: Red, Green, Blue
Player B has color: Red
Player C has color: Green
Player D has color: Green

If I now activate the new Clothing: "Draw and score a {1} for each color present on your board not present on all other players' boards.", I would draw three cards, because neither Red, Green nor Blue are on all other players' boards. I think we all can agree that this is not the correct interpretation.

My interpretation is that I can draw only one card. (Your interpretation is that I can draw two cards.)

I can recollect having the any/all discussion elsewhere, but I cannot find it now (it might be for a different game). Anyhow, the correct interpretation for A.I. ("If Robotics and Software are top cards on any board, ...") is not on any single board, but on the collection of all the players' boards. I would be surprised if Clothing has the other interpretation.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
B C Z
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We look at each color. If it is present on any other player's board, we don't draw a card.

"I have red - so does Joe, no card."
"I have blue - no-one else does, draw a card."
"I have green - so does Ann, no card."
"I have purple - no-one else does, draw a card."
"I do not have yellow, no card."

Simple.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
badge
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dwrigley wrote:
borgemik wrote:
Like AI, "any player" means "all players combined".

(Otherwise, it would probably say: "Choose a player. Draw and score .. not present on that player's board.")


But if this was true, would the dogma not state "All other players..." rather than "Any other player's...".

I interpret the dogma to mean comparing against any other single player.

That's an improper interpretation of the not ... any construction. Not any is synonymous with none.

If you want to flip it around to the positive, ask: "Is this color on any player's board?" It's pretty obvious when we read it like that that you would need to check every player's board to answer, until you came to one that had it. All you would need is a single instance to answer "yes."

Additionally, someone was confused by the use of player instead of players. Any is singular, so for proper agreement, it should be used with a singular noun.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wot!
United Kingdom
Reading
Berkshire
flag msg tools
badge
...i WILL own it all!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
byronczimmer wrote:
We look at each color. If it is present on any other player's board, we don't draw a card.

"I have red - so does Joe, no card."
"I have blue - no-one else does, draw a card."
"I have green - so does Ann, no card."
"I have purple - no-one else does, draw a card."
"I do not have yellow, no card."

Simple.



... I hate to admit it but this does make sense, and does fit with the dogma that 'a colour I have is not on any other player's board'.

I am struggling to get my family to play this game anymore, as we end up in this sort of discussion many times over every game ...

I refuse to go anywhere near an expansion !!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Cieslik
United States
Arlington
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Banana!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Clothing looks at all opponents' boards (not a teammate's if you are playing 4P).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Pinnegar
United States
Columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
angelkurisu wrote:
Clothing looks at all opponents' boards (not a teammate's if you are playing 4P).


Thanks for the quick response. You guys should honestly release the card texts ahead of time to allow people to proof read them. I /really/ like innovation. I /really/ hate the wording on some of the cards.

Jazzepi
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randall Bart
United States
Winnetka
California
flag msg tools
designer
Baseball been bery bery good to me
badge
This is a picture of a published game designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am still a little confused here. In Innovation, is clothing optional?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
badge
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Barticus88 wrote:
I am still a little confused here. In Innovation, is clothing optional?

Not when you're playing, brother!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kirk Monsen
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Clothing is great in a two player game, but sucks with four

-Munch "The more people involved, the less you can rely on clothing" Wolf
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jazzepi wrote:
angelkurisu wrote:
Clothing looks at all opponents' boards (not a teammate's if you are playing 4P).


Thanks for the quick response. You guys should honestly release the card texts ahead of time to allow people to proof read them. I /really/ like innovation. I /really/ hate the wording on some of the cards.

Jazzepi


I agree some cards' wordings are not perfect. Clothing, though, is phrased very accurately. I don't know how you think it should be worded, but the suggestions I've heard so far for rewording it were flat-out wrong.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SevenSpirits wrote:
I agree some cards' wordings are not perfect. Clothing, though, is phrased very accurately. I don't know how you think it should be worded, but the suggestions I've heard so far for rewording it were flat-out wrong.


I think it's unambiguous to a native English speaker, but "not ... any" is an idiomatic construction which admits alternate parsings that are also syntactically correct. It would be clearer to everyone if it said something like: Draw and score a 1 for each color that is present on your board and absent from every other player's board.

P.S. Putting in the explicit relative pronoun "that", rather than leaving out the relative pronoun, adds significantly to clarity, imho.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
badge
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
I agree some cards' wordings are not perfect. Clothing, though, is phrased very accurately. I don't know how you think it should be worded, but the suggestions I've heard so far for rewording it were flat-out wrong.


I think it's unambiguous to a native English speaker, but "not ... any" is an idiomatic construction which admits alternate parsings that are also syntactically correct.

It's funny. You say that and yet the only people arguing for an incorrect interpretation are native English speakers.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
out4blood wrote:
You say that and yet the only people arguing for an incorrect interpretation are native English speakers.


How can you tell? You know all of the posters here personally?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
badge
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
out4blood wrote:
You say that and yet the only people arguing for an incorrect interpretation are native English speakers.


How can you tell? You know all of the posters here personally?

I can tell by their accents. I am good that way.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wot!
United Kingdom
Reading
Berkshire
flag msg tools
badge
...i WILL own it all!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
out4blood wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
I agree some cards' wordings are not perfect. Clothing, though, is phrased very accurately. I don't know how you think it should be worded, but the suggestions I've heard so far for rewording it were flat-out wrong.


I think it's unambiguous to a native English speaker, but "not ... any" is an idiomatic construction which admits alternate parsings that are also syntactically correct.

It's funny. You say that and yet the only people arguing for an incorrect interpretation are native English speakers.



yes!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
badge
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dwrigley wrote:
out4blood wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
I agree some cards' wordings are not perfect. Clothing, though, is phrased very accurately. I don't know how you think it should be worded, but the suggestions I've heard so far for rewording it were flat-out wrong.


I think it's unambiguous to a native English speaker, but "not ... any" is an idiomatic construction which admits alternate parsings that are also syntactically correct.

It's funny. You say that and yet the only people arguing for an incorrect interpretation are native English speakers.

yes!

See? By using my special powers, I can also tell this person is a fellow Mahjong fan.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
out4blood wrote:
See? By using my special powers, I can also tell this person is a fellow Mahjong fan.


I haven't seen a microbadge for "native English speaker".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
badge
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
out4blood wrote:
See? By using my special powers, I can also tell this person is a fellow Mahjong fan.


I haven't seen a microbadge for "native English speaker".

Who said anything about microbadges?!

But if you're shopping for some:
mb
mb
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No one said anything about microbadges. I used my special powers.

I know I shouldn't care, but I'm still trying to figure out whether you do personally know the posters in this thread and their native languages, or you're just talking through your hat.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
badge
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
No one said anything about microbadges. I used my special powers.

I know I shouldn't care, but I'm still trying to figure out whether you do personally know the posters in this thread and their native languages, or you're just talking through your hat.

You take yourself and BGG way to frackin' seriously, dude.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Engle
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmb
Yes. David takes himself too seriously. However, he is correct that the wording on the card is correct and unambiguous. (I disagree that adding "..that is.." increases clarity. Indeed, it strikes me as an awkward construction.)

To be painfully precise, I would describe the problem as choosing between

1) Draw and score a [1] for each color which is an element of the set named "your board" and is not an element of any of the sets named "other player's board".

or,

2) Chose a set named "other player's board", then draw and score a [1] for each color which is an element of the set named "your board" and is not an element of the chosen set "other player's board."

or, God forbid,

3) For each color which is an element of the set named "your board", chose a set named "other player's board" if the color is an element of the set "your board" and is not an element of the chosen set "other player's board" draw and score a [1].

But this set language is very cumbersome, so we compact the language about sets. For example, x (which is an element of the set named) y gets compacted to x (present on) y and we get -

1) Draw and score a [1] for each color (present on) "your board" not (present on any) "other player's board".

or

2) Chose (an)"other player's board", then draw and score a [1] for each color which is (present on) "your board" which is not (present on the chosen) "other player's board."

or

3) For each color (present on) "your board", chose (an)"other player's board" if the color is (present on) "your board" and is not (present on the) "other player's board" draw and score a [1].

Thus (1), the actual wording on the card, is correct.

The idea that "other player's board" in (1) should be plural "other players' boards" is simply wrong. This would be essentially equivalent to ending the sentence -

1) ... not an element of any of the sets named "other players' boards".

But there is really only one object which could reasonably be called the set of "other players' boards".

The object of a prepositional phrase "any of x" must be plural.
"Any of the houses" is correct.
"Any of the house" is incorrect.

But even if we butchered all the English teachers and allowed this gross grammatical error, the logical meaning of (1), which is what matters for game play, would be unchanged.

I hate to be mean to the OP, but I think the card is actually an example of good style. The OP is going so far out of his way to misread the line that he's insisting on creating a grammatical error
that isn't there in the original so that he can go on to willfully make a logical error.

It's telling that all of the re-writes proposed in this thread make the text longer (including mine.) This is almost always a bad sign. Clear texts are concise. Whenever you edit anything, if you can't make it shorter, the original is usually better than your edit.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.