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Subject: Activation and reactivation rss

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Volker Hirscher
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Hi,

played my first game yesterday, quite fun (although we played many things wrong ).

One question was left which I could not clearly answer from reading the rules (although I think that it is just me ) concerning activation/reactivation and passing:
-----
If the character was not engaged before, I have to rotate the character. In addition, OPTIONALLY, I can assing an order tile and (again optionally) spend CPs on him.

If the character was engaged before, I MUST either assign a new command tile and/or play CPs on him.
Generally, all of a player's characters must have been activated once before a character may be reactivated.
------

Is that right? Especially the second statement was unclear, but if it is not correct, you could simply re-activate a character and do nothing, and so would never have to pass...

[Edit: added the dashed line and the sentence in italic letters for clarity]
 
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The Autumn Gamer is a pirate, Blustering in from sea, With a rollocking song, he sweeps along, Swaggering boisterously. The Autumn Gamer is a raider, Pillaging just for fun. He'll knock you 'round and upside down, And laugh when he's conquered and won.
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Activation and reactivation is just the same. So in theory you are able to do a reactivation over and over again without doing anything. But why?

And keep in mind, that you are only able to reactivate after you activated every character at least once.
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Volker Hirscher
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So, is my statement above wrong or right? I don't think that activation and re-activation is the same... (see above)
 
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John Varan
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I don't think your statement is completely correct.

If the character was not previously engaged - assign a new order tile and spend CP's.

If the character was previously engaged, you must first engage every character you control at least once, and then you can activate that character again (but you don't have to activate him again if you don't want to). Once you do, you can either assign a new order tile, or you can place more CP's on the existing order tile, assuming it can hold more and that you don't go over the character's max CP limit.
 
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Guido Gloor
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I don't see the rules clearly spelling out that a reactivation that would be functionally equivalent to a pass (because nothing in the game state changes) does count as a pass (or rather, is not allowed as something that can legitmately be called "reactivation"), no. It would have to be on page 6, since all the rules governing reactivation are there.

If that were possible though, it would make the pass clearly inferior to a functionally equivalent alternative (namely, said functionally empty reactivation), and it would also render the rule that two successive passes mark the end of the activation phase entirely superfluous. So the intent of the rules seems to be quite clearly that a functionally empty reactivation is not allowed and if a player wants to do nothing, he has to pass and may not choose a reactivation without spending CP or order tiles.

But the rules don't spell it out explicitly enough for the most determined of rules lawyers.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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For clarity: I wrote my "thesis" between two dashed lines in first post above, and in italics I added a sentence regarding your clarification.

@Guido: That's exactly my point. The rules imply that "pass" and "empty activation" are the same - but I guess that an "empty activation" is not possible at all, because you must assign an order tile AND/OR spend CPs when re-activating a character.

@John:
Quote:
If the character was not previously engaged - assign a new order tile and spend CP's.


I disagree: assigning tile and spending CP are bot optional for ungaged characters.

Quote:
If the character was previously engaged, you must first engage every character you control at least once, and then you can activate that character again (but you don't have to activate him again if you don't want to)


true

Quote:
Once you do, you can either assign a new order tile, or you can place more CP's on the existing order tile, assuming it can hold more and that you don't go over the character's max CP limit.


I disagree: You can also do both - assign tile AND spend CPs.


Sorry for the confusion, but to be honest, I am still confused
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Guido Gloor
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mavo wrote:
@Guido: That's exactly my point. The rules imply that "pass" and "empty activation" are the same - but I guess that an "empty activation" is not possible at all, because you must assign an order tile AND/OR spend CPs when re-activating a character.

I know I think I successfully ended up confusing everybody about what I really wanted to say in my post:

It quite clearly seems to be the intent of the rules that empty activations aren't possible, it's merely not spelled out, so playing with your thesis above is the only thing that makes sense even though the rules don't explicitly enforce it as written.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Ok Guido, seems at least we both agree

Can anyone else confirm that we got it right?
 
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Stefan Hechtl
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As you already pointed out you could create a deadlock situation if engaged characters could be actived and not assigned any tile nor any CP. So we also play it that you have to assign a tile or spend at least one CP or pass.
Official clarification would be nice though...
 
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Paul Bauman
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It would be nice but... we all know what the clarification will be so who cares, to be honest.

It's obvious that this loophole should be closed by disallowing empty re-activations. Otherwise the phase engine breaks, period.
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Volker Hirscher
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Maybe it isn't even unclear in the rules.

The rules say: Activate a character, and then "perform either or both of the following options", with these options being assigning a tile and spending CPs. I guess, "either or both" means "at least one", which would mean you have to perform at least one option (of those mentioned above).

Then, in the paragraph about assigning order tiles, the rules say "The Active player may decide to forgo the option of assigning
an Order tile when first activating a Character". The bold-emphasis is mine - but I guess it should say that only when you activate an character for the first time (i.e. an unengaged character), you may choose the assign-action and do nothing.

What do you think? Of course, I would also be pleased if Chris would just clarify it
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Paul Bauman
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That's a very good point. The rule does explicitly state that the "forgo" option is available on first activation, so to me that means re-activation does not allow that option.
 
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The Autumn Gamer is a pirate, Blustering in from sea, With a rollocking song, he sweeps along, Swaggering boisterously. The Autumn Gamer is a raider, Pillaging just for fun. He'll knock you 'round and upside down, And laugh when he's conquered and won.
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Just play it that way and be done with it. It is - IMO - nothing that breaks the game balance or whatever regardless of how you play.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Sorry, E.I., I disagree.

It really makes a difference if I have to pass or if I can choose to do nothing, but do not have to pass. When I HAVE TO pass, this gives my opponent the chance to end the omplete turn, so... I don't think it is a big deal, but as it is the heart of the game, an clear statement would be cool.
 
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Boris
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Chris answered that question here:
http://forum.earthreborn.ludically.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=...

So the answer is:
If you reactivate a character, than you MUST either drop an order tile and/or spend CPs.
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