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Subject: Do Not Use Coins Rule - No Change rss

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David Turner
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For the solitary and two player variants it states to not use coins and that you use your contracts directly to purchase bonus and building cards. You get no change.

Is the no change per card or for all cards purchased during the investment phase.

Example: Could you spend a $2 contract an $8 contract to purchase 2 x $5 Building cards. Or could you just spend one $8 contract for one $5 building card and not get change.

Example 2: Could you spend a $8 contract for a $4 building card, turn a new replacement card and then buy that $4 card with the balance?



 
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mfl134
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We played that you carried no change over to the next round. Basically the total things that you bought that round had to be less than the amount of the spent contracts.

We also played you cannot change which contracts you are spending after revealing new cards (bonuses or buildings..)
 
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Eric Rampson
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You can combine cards to reach the costs of higher cards. You can split the value of a single contract over multiple cards.

I also think it is completely within the rules to decide to sell an additional contract after a new card (bonus or building) has been turned over. Nowhere in the rules does it say that you have to decide up front which contracts to sell, it only says yuo can sell any number of your contracts as long as you keep ONE and that a card is immediately flipped when one is purchased so that there are always four of each type on offer and that you can buy the new card. I don't think the intention was for the player to have to designate ALL contracts that are going to be sold PRIOR to purchasing. I think it is intended to be fluid.
 
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Ken Thibodeau
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Scud-O wrote:
You can combine cards to reach the costs of higher cards. You can split the value of a single contract over multiple cards.


If you compare this mechanic to the original rules where you sell contracts for money, then use that money to buy card(s) it makes sense. I assumed that is also the case when trading contracts, but is this written somewhere in the rules?
 
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Eric Rampson
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I don't see it written in the rules, but I also don't see the converse written in the rules either. I think that intent of "not using coins" is that you can't sell a contract this turn (because you have 6 contracts) and hold the value of the contract over to another turn where you are forced to invest in order to grab a larger card. Any contratcs you sell are a use it or lose it proposition.
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mfl134
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Scud-O wrote:
You can combine cards to reach the costs of higher cards. You can split the value of a single contract over multiple cards.

I also think it is completely within the rules to decide to sell an additional contract after a new card (bonus or building) has been turned over. Nowhere in the rules does it say that you have to decide up front which contracts to sell, it only says yuo can sell any number of your contracts as long as you keep ONE and that a card is immediately flipped when one is purchased so that there are always four of each type on offer and that you can buy the new card. I don't think the intention was for the player to have to designate ALL contracts that are going to be sold PRIOR to purchasing. I think it is intended to be fluid.


The key reason I was saying that you can't change the contracts you are spending after revealing new cards is due to this example:

My contracts are 4,5,7,7,8,9. All of the bonus cards are worth 4 coins. I say that I am spending my 4 to get a bonus card. The next card is revealed to be a 3, which I would also like to buy. Now I want to switch to spend one of my 7's instead of the 4, to buy both the 4 and the 3 bonus card. However, I don't feel one should be able to decide not to spend the already declared 4.

In the rules with coins, this 4 would have already been converted to coins to buy the first bonus card.
 
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Eric Rampson
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Hm, good question. That is a bit different from what I was getting at (I spend this four to buy that bonus card, oh, look, another bonus card I want, I'll ALSO spend this 6 to grab that card).

I would have to agree with you that I wouldn't allow a "take-back". If you hadn't so;ld the 4 to buy the card, you would never have seen the new bonus card in the first place, so you can't go back and spend a different contract because that would be trading on specifically hidden information. However, if you wanted to dump a 7 to grab the new card (and maybe another 3-cost bonus card), I think that's fine.
 
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mfl134
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I agree, adding more cards is fine.
 
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David Turner
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I would think you would simply take all the bonus and building cards (including ones after flip) that you wish to purchase, and then pay for them with contracts. So the decision of what contract(s) to spend is after all cards have been selected.
 
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Eric Rampson
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You have to buy a card in order to flip a card. If you sell a contract to buy a card, then flip a new card, you shouldn't be able to "unsell" the first contract in order to sell a different, higher value contract so that you can buy both cards with one contract. Selling the first contract is what allowed you to flip that new card in the first place.

Taken to its most ridiculous extreme, I would be able to figure out my total possible buying power (the total of all but one contract), then start flipping cards and, as long as I could possibly keep buying cards, I could look at a bunch of extra cards and then decide what to sell.
 
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mfl134
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Here is the way the Do Not Use Coins Rules could be written to make it absolutely clear.

Take coins normally in the game.
At the end of your turn discard all coins.
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David Turner
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Scud-O wrote:
You have to buy a card in order to flip a card. If you sell a contract to buy a card, then flip a new card, you shouldn't be able to "unsell" the first contract in order to sell a different, higher value contract so that you can buy both cards with one contract. Selling the first contract is what allowed you to flip that new card in the first place.

Taken to its most ridiculous extreme, I would be able to figure out my total possible buying power (the total of all but one contract), then start flipping cards and, as long as I could possibly keep buying cards, I could look at a bunch of extra cards and then decide what to sell.


Any card you decided to purchase you would be obligated to buy.

It comes down to, do you buy one card at a time or not. The problem I have with one card at a time without coins was in my original post.
"Example 2: Could you spend a $8 contract for a $4 building card, turn a new replacement card and then buy that $4 card with the balance?"

The rules are not clear. There are several ways to work out the details. I am unsure of the original intent of the designer.
 
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mfl134
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dturnerfish wrote:
Scud-O wrote:
You have to buy a card in order to flip a card. If you sell a contract to buy a card, then flip a new card, you shouldn't be able to "unsell" the first contract in order to sell a different, higher value contract so that you can buy both cards with one contract. Selling the first contract is what allowed you to flip that new card in the first place.

Taken to its most ridiculous extreme, I would be able to figure out my total possible buying power (the total of all but one contract), then start flipping cards and, as long as I could possibly keep buying cards, I could look at a bunch of extra cards and then decide what to sell.


Any card you decided to purchase you would be obligated to buy.

It comes down to, do you buy one card at a time or not. The problem I have with one card at a time without coins was in my original post.
"Example 2: Could you spend a $8 contract for a $4 building card, turn a new replacement card and then buy that $4 card with the balance?"

The rules are not clear. There are several ways to work out the details. I am unsure of the original intent of the designer.


While I am not the designer, and have no authority here... I assure you this is correct:

mfl134 wrote:
Here is the way the Do Not Use Coins Rules could be written to make it absolutely clear.

Take coins normally in the game.
At the end of your turn discard all coins.


So, yes could could buy the $4 card with the balance. You just can't get that $8 contract back.
 
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