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Carthage: The First Punic War» Forums » Rules

Subject: Proroguing Consuls rss

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Steve Salkovics
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There seems to be a direct conflict in the rules. The rules clearly say that you can (and it often happened, historically) prorogue either the RC or FC in charge of their former consular armies as Proconsuls. However, it also clearly states that a new RC and FC must be elected and placed in charge of the former respective consular armies or placed in charge of fleets. So, if you prorogue a former RC or FC then you can interpret the rules as one of these;
1. The new FC or RC is put in charge of a fleet
2. The prorogued former RC or FC is put in charge of some other consular army or fleet
3. If there are no fleets (unlikely situation) then you cannot prorogue a former FC or RC as proconsul in charge of their previous consular army.

So, if I get this right, even though proroguing consuls in charge of their former legions was historically common (why bring them all the way home after all) you can't do this unless you have a fleet availible.


A side comment about Berg games;
While I am a fan of Berg games (I have many), if you buy a Berg game you can bet that;

1. It will do a good job of recreating historical flavor
2. There will be lots of irritating rules exceptions that aren't easy to find that are there to force historicity. The first 5 times you play one of his games you will get the exceptions wrong at least once per game and it will matter.
3. There will be rules that contradict each other.
4. There will ALWAYS be rules clarification questions no matter how smart or experienced you are and Berg will forget what the answer is supposed to be to your questions
5. If you relax and don't obsess too much about knowing that you are following the exact rules then they are good games that provide good flavor.
6. If there was more time spent on playtesting and tightening up the rulesbook (less one-off exceptions that are hard to find, more organization to find the exceptions and relative rules, getting rid if contradictions with clear examples etc), most Berg games would go from being good to excellent in my ratings systems.

The one game of his that doesn't follow the above is Lord of the Ring which I definitely rate excellent (minus a few silly extra die rolls like the shadow points, which could easily be done with one roll instead of two).

His games are like watching an enjoyable movie that could have been so much better with more conscientious tweaking.

OK..enough of my rant.
Sal
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Brian Sielski
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I wish I had the rule set in front of me ... because I recall this issue I had as well. However, I did not see it as you are. There are some other alternatives. IIRC, after your pro-rouge the RC, the new RC can be given an army elswhere ... and is not restricted to the fleet. Similar for the FC.

Regarding your rant on Berg games ... I agree.
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Steve Salkovics
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I think you could (and probably should) interpret the way you just said BUT if you are trying to interpret the rules literally then it clearly states that the new RC/FC MUST take the previous RC/FC consular army UNLESS;
1. They take a fleet instead or
2. The consular army doesn't exist (in which case it MUST be raised)

In other words, according to the rules, a new RC/FC cannot take an existing consular army other than the one the last RC/FC had.

I am gonna go with my gut but my gut contradicts the literal translation of the rules..frustrating but still workable.

Thanx,
Sal

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Brian Sielski
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Read under the 3rd item for Restrictions for a RC (or FC). They can be prorogued to any Consular Army (or his fleet).

Under what condition are you using a Proconsul? Is this under a siege only, or just trying to keep a good Consul on the map as another PC for one more turn?

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Martí Cabré

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Make the new RC stay in Rome (doing politics instead of waging war). He will be able to try to raise new legions. The new FC will take the old FC's army and there will be a Consular Army available for the prorogued C.
 
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Martí Cabré

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Discard my previous statement. Your first post is correct.

Then a strategy I've done is to assign the RC to a fleet, and the turn after that, as the previous RC won't have an assigned army, the new RC can be put in Rome to do some politics.

Regarding Consular Armies, don't be attached to them. This is Rome. If an army drops in strength, disband it. Don't refrain to raise new legions each turn (having the RC in Rome helps). Rome makes up in reinforcements what she does not have in quality.
 
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Steve Salkovics
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Yeah..I don't think you can choose to keep an RC in Rome in order to raise new legions (unless a CA was gone)..otherwise, why wouldn't you always choose to keep the RC in rome and raise a new consular army every turn until you had a ridiculous large force ? I am not stuck on preserving consular armies but I am stuck on interpreting the rules correctly.

Brian..you are right but, according to the rules, you MUST also give the new RC/FC the previous Consular army unless you give them a fleet.

I am wondering how to keep a good consul as a proconsul in charge of a large consular army without giving the new consul a fleet. Doesn't seem possible given the rules.

I normally wouldn't quibble so much about the rules but it seems like this would make a big difference.

Thanx,
Sal
 
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Martí Cabré

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It's not possible because Berg wanted it that way. This is gaming the politics of the 1st Punic Wars and it seems that it went this way. Later on, the system became more flexible, it seems.

You can achieve having a RC in Rome and raising forces each turn. First you have a RC. Then the new RC is put in a fleet. Next turn, as the previous RC did not have a CA, you put the third RC in Rome.

From this point the RC in Rome can raise new legions. But you'll have to be lucky with the dice.
 
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Steve Salkovics
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Are you sure about this ? I thought the RC MUST have either an existing fleet or existing consular army..I thought the ONLY way you can raise a new consular army for the new RC/FC is if a Consular army didn't exist (then you MUST raise a new CA).

Thanx,
Sal
 
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Brian Sielski
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Reading the examples in CR 5.2 are helpful (somewhat) in regards to the RC. Maybe I'm out of whack.
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Martí Cabré

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taishon wrote:
Are you sure about this ? I thought the RC MUST have either an existing fleet or existing consular army..I thought the ONLY way you can raise a new consular army for the new RC/FC is if a Consular army didn't exist (then you MUST raise a new CA).

Thanx,
Sal


Well, the rules say that if the previous RC had no AC, then the new one MAY (not MUST) be assigned a new one. It is an option. CR5.21. So if the previous RC was assigned a Fleet instead of an AC, the next one can be assigned nothing, stay in Rome and start recruiting legions.
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Kev.
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marticabre wrote:
taishon wrote:
Are you sure about this ? I thought the RC MUST have either an existing fleet or existing consular army..I thought the ONLY way you can raise a new consular army for the new RC/FC is if a Consular army didn't exist (then you MUST raise a new CA).

Thanx,
Sal


Well, the rules say that if the previous RC had no AC, then the new one MAY (not MUST) be assigned a new one. It is an option. CR5.21. So if the previous RC was assigned a Fleet instead of an AC, the next one can be assigned nothing, stay in Rome and start recruiting legions.


Did someone resolve this?
 
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Shawn
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marticabre wrote:
taishon wrote:
Are you sure about this ? I thought the RC MUST have either an existing fleet or existing consular army..I thought the ONLY way you can raise a new consular army for the new RC/FC is if a Consular army didn't exist (then you MUST raise a new CA).

Thanx,
Sal


Well, the rules say that if the previous RC had no AC, then the new one MAY (not MUST) be assigned a new one. It is an option. CR5.21. So if the previous RC was assigned a Fleet instead of an AC, the next one can be assigned nothing, stay in Rome and start recruiting legions.


Exactly - the word MAY is very important in the process. I've run into several instances when a new Consul just sits in a city because there are no forces that he can legally command.
 
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Brian Sielski
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hipshot wrote:


Did someone resolve this?


Yes, blue text in CR5.21, etc.
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