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Subject: You CAN target damaged and routed units when subject to Warlock ability rss

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Henning
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I have just received word from Corey for a question I mailed him a couple of days ago.

Quote:

Regarding the Warlock Orb ability:

Q: What happens if, for instance, my opponent has 1 knight that is damaged and the only other units is 2 footmen - can my opponent choose to destroy the knight?

A: Yes, he could destroy his knight.


Q: Now what happens if my opponent has 1 knight that is damaged and the only other unit is 1 footman - which of those 2 units must my opponent choose to destroy?

A: This player would need to destroy his knight before he has the option of destroying 1 footman.


Quote:

Does this mean that an opponent can choose to destroy 1 of his routed units?

Yes.


I thought the answer might be interesting to the community because we in our group have always played that the opponent subject to warlocks orb ability could only target undamaged and standing units if available. But maybe it is plain to everybody else

I guess the same questions and answers could be applied to the Skeleton Archer's Orb ability.


Best regards
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Scott Lewis
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Hinnyboy wrote:
Does this mean that an opponent can choose to destroy 1 of his routed units?

Yes.

Hmm, interesting. I may follow up on this, because this seems to directly contradict the rule on page 22:

"When a player is forced to damage or destroy one of his units, he must always choose a standing unit if able (as opposed to a routed one)."


When you asked the question of Corey, did you mention the rule here? I ask because from past experience (with Twilight Imperium), I don't think Corey always checks with the rules (he's got a lot on his plate, I'm sure), and he's made rulings that are at odds with the rules before, but has reversed them when a rule has been brought to light.

Granted, this could very well be the intent, but it is contradictory to what is written in the rules.

The Destroyed bit is good to know, though (I had also been playing that the Destroy rule was similar to the Rout rule in that you must pick an undamaged unit first); I'll add that to my list of rulings for the next version, and assuming my follow-up with Corey results in the same answer, I'll add that one, too.
 
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Henning
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Hmm, interesting. I may follow up on this, because this seems to directly contradict the rule on page 22:

"When a player is forced to damage or destroy one of his units, he must always choose a standing unit if able (as opposed to a routed one)."


I did not mention the rule unfortunately. This was the pretty much the entire conversation.

I agree that it might be good to double check. The part about targeting routed units is very strange to be honest
 
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Scott Lewis
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We'll see what he says Corey is usually pretty good about listening to questions about rulings. Sometimes he reverses them when a rule is pointed out, sometimes he clarifies the intent behind the rule.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Tretiak wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:

Hmm, interesting. I may follow up on this, because this seems to directly contradict the rule on page 22:

"When a player is forced to damage or destroy one of his units, he must always choose a standing unit if able (as opposed to a routed one)."



I don't think this is such a big contradiction. The instructions are:

2 Triangle Units OR 1 Rectangle Unit

Since "2 Triangle Units" is not an option, the Knight is the only unit that fits the description.

Therefore the player was not able to destroy one footman because the instruction asked for 2.

That's not the question I have issues with; it's the third one, where Corey said you could destroy one of your routed units.

Of course, maybe that was in the context of "1 routed knight and 1 standing footman", in which case the routed knight is the only way to "completely" fulfill the ability. Now that I look at it again, the question isn't really clear - it just says you can choose to destroy a routed unit (which, at least as written, the rules say you cannot do if you are able to do something else; but again, killing 1 triangle is not that "something else", as that would only PARTLY fulfill it, whereas destroying a routed rectangle would COMPLETELY fulfill it).

Basically, it seems (from my reading, and previous rulings) this is the priority:

1) Standing units which completely fulfill the condition
2) Routed units which completely fulfill the condition
3) Standing units which partially fulfill the condition
4) Routed units which partially fulfill the condition

IE, filling the condition seems to be the trump. And perhaps that was the question Corey was intending to answer, in which case you are right, it doesn't contradict

But if the player has 1 routed knight and 2 standing footmen, unless the rule is wrong, the player MUST choose the footmen.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Tretiak wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:

But if the player has 1 routed knight and 2 standing footmen, unless the rule is wrong, the player MUST choose the footmen.


Definitely. In that case he is able to do something else than destroy his routed knight, so destroying the knight is out o f the question.

And therein lies the crux of the confusion; Corey's answer (the 3rd one in the original post) could imply that you COULD choose the knight. However, the question itself is not completely clear (ie, it doesn't give situational context, but it may have been related to the #2 question).
 
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Scott Lewis
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I got an email from Corey, and his answer leads me to think that I misunderstood the CONTEXT of the question originally, as his answer stated that you could choose the routed knight because it would completely fulfill the Warlock ability... thus implying the situation where there's only 1 standing footman.

I followed up with a check about the routed knight/2 footmen situation, so hopefully I'll get that final clarification soon.
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Gilead James
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Still no word on this?
 
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Scott Lewis
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lumpthing wrote:
Still no word on this?

Not yet, this is one of several questions that I've asked but have not received word on.

I am still thinking that the issue is with the CONTEXT, in that the answer saying you could destroy a routed knight was based on the assumption that there is only ONE standing triangle unit left.
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Scott Lewis
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Finally got a response on this, and my suspicion was correct; Corey's ruling to the above seems to have been based on the assumption that there is only ONE standing triangle unit and one routed Rectangle unit; in that case, the "must fulfill completely" trumps the "destroy standing units first" rule, and thus the routed Rectangle would be destroyed.

However, I asked Corey about a situation with TWO Standing Triangles and one Routed Rectangle, and he confirmed that in that situation, you would have to do the standing triangles, as doing so does make it possible to fulfill the ability, and thus you cannot violate the "destroy standing units first" rule.

IE, you can only destroy routed/damaged units before standing units if doing so would fulfill an ability and there aren't enough standing units to do so.
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Kelly Fischer
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Thanks Scott for following up on this.
 
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Henning
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Yes, thanks a lot! It explains a few things.
 
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