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Subject: War of the Suns, and other insights rss

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Larz Welo
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So, I'm reading in the Ruins of Empire, and thinking about China. I'm really interested in the upcoming War of the Suns, and if the pricetag was a little lower, I'd P500 it. Anyway, why hasn't anyone made a game of the Chinese Civil War? 2 or 3 players, Nationalists, Communists, and maybe Japanese/Foreign interests. It'd be pretty abstracted, somewhere between Paths of Glory and Twilight Struggle, but it could be a real super cool game. The historical span of the game, 1927-1950 is just incredible. Military units are definitely involved in some major conflicts.

I know that sometimes I complain about Triumph of Chaos being too tricky (I feel, if your tolerance is higher than mine...you'll love it, I can almost promise), and this would probably be just as tricky. But still...wouldn't it be awesome?

The Communists would just be surviving at the beginning, and eventually end up as a major powerhouse.

The Nationalists would always be militarily powerful, but crippled by corruption and factionalism.

The Foreigners would have swinging goals, from attaining economic control to downright conquest, to most-favored nation status for trade issues.

I'm sure Eric would have more insights to contribute, and even Jumpit might know a few things. Hopefully this is old enough history to avoid RSP (unlike all the wonderful threads on modeling the very current issues in the mid-east).
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Pete Belli
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Larz Welo
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pete belli wrote:


No reviews and badly rated. Hard to tell.
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John H
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greatredwarrior wrote:
Anyway, why hasn't anyone made a game of the Chinese Civil War? 2 or 3 players, Nationalists, Communists, and maybe Japanese/Foreign interests.


Quick geeklist search would have yielded you this list
Wargames of China

The first few games on the list, #25, and a few later in the list all fit the bill. Battle for China is a great game.
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Lance McMillan
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gamezendo.com wrote:
Battle for China is a great game.


Concur -- covers the Chinese Civil War topic quite well and is fun to play.
 
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Enrico Viglino
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greatredwarrior wrote:
pete belli wrote:


No reviews and badly rated. Hard to tell.


It's an interesting game. Very light mechanism, holding three to seven players.

Something about it feels almost like Diplomacy to me - few limitations
on what bargains are ok and not.

I could only bring about 1/3 of my collection of boxed games, and this
made the cut. Games like 1776 and VITP did not.
 
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William Boykin
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I thought it was more like Britannia...

Darilian
 
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Enrico Viglino
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I certainly don't see it as very similar.
The combat system is like a stripped down Empires in Arms,
while the victory conditions are solely judged by an end state.
In any scenario, players are only a single power.

Beyond area movement, I don't see anything like Britannia at all.
 
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Drew Heath
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greatredwarrior wrote:
why hasn't anyone made a game of the Chinese Civil War?


I'll start with rational and then get emotional on you.

a) it is extremely difficult to get accurate supporting materials (OOBs, period maps, etc) for such a game. The KMT records were shit and are mostly gone, the Communist records have been through the Ministry of Truth too many times, and the Japanese bragged a bit too much. Plus, almost nothing is in English.

b) the amorphous nature of much of the combat meant many events simply weren't recorded

c) political machinations aside, there were relatively few set-piece battles. That makes a traditional wargame approach somewhat problematic ("nothing" happens)

d) the Western market for Sino-centric wargames is weak. Flying Tigers? Sure. Slim in Burma? Great! Asian guy vs. other Asian guy? *yawn* Frustrating? Absolutely. But accurate.

HOWEVER, I agree with you that a game covering the whole of the conflict would be a life-changer. It would also be extremely difficult. You'd either have to basically nail-down historical progression to the point of passively replaying history, or you'd end up with a game that played ahistorical 19 times out of 20. There are just so many events that in hindsight were bizarre/borderline suicidal/should never have succeeded but did (example: The Long March).

One can dream of such a game. In the meantime, for a grognard fix, I heartily recommend War of Resistance. You'll get your 3 sides, you'll get your communists melting away into the hills flavor, and you'll get your historical accuracy (as much as possible). Sadly, you'll only get it for about 4 years worth of warfare.

- a grog who lives in Mukden
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Eric Lai
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Shad wrote:
greatredwarrior wrote:
why hasn't anyone made a game of the Chinese Civil War?


I'll start with rational and then get emotional on you.

a) it is extremely difficult to get accurate supporting materials (OOBs, period maps, etc) for such a game. The KMT records were shit and are mostly gone, the Communist records have been through the Ministry of Truth too many times, and the Japanese bragged a bit too much. Plus, almost nothing is in English.

b) the amorphous nature of much of the combat meant many events simply weren't recorded

c) political machinations aside, there were relatively few set-piece battles. That makes a traditional wargame approach somewhat problematic ("nothing" happens)

d) the Western market for Sino-centric wargames is weak. Flying Tigers? Sure. Slim in Burma? Great! Asian guy vs. other Asian guy? *yawn* Frustrating? Absolutely. But accurate.

HOWEVER, I agree with you that a game covering the whole of the conflict would be a life-changer. It would also be extremely difficult. You'd either have to basically nail-down historical progression to the point of passively replaying history, or you'd end up with a game that played ahistorical 19 times out of 20. There are just so many events that in hindsight were bizarre/borderline suicidal/should never have succeeded but did (example: The Long March).

One can dream of such a game. In the meantime, for a grognard fix, I heartily recommend War of Resistance. You'll get your 3 sides, you'll get your communists melting away into the hills flavor, and you'll get your historical accuracy (as much as possible). Sadly, you'll only get it for about 4 years worth of warfare.

- a grog who lives in Mukden


Despite the lack of games on the topic. I have noticed that the few games about the Chinese Civil War or any war fought by China for that matter which are OOP sell for very high prices used compared to other counterpart games. Not sure why that is....
 
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Drew Heath
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Garfink wrote:

Despite the lack of games on the topic. I have noticed that the few games about the Chinese Civil War or any war fought by China for that matter which are OOP sell for very high prices used compared to other counterpart games. Not sure why that is....


I think your observations are either biased to your overseas location or biased due to small sample size. War of Resistance can be had for $50 unpunched, and has hovered at that price point for years -- significantly less than the MSRP. Battle for China (first edition) is cheap and plentiful in all its forms, despite some people noting the "paucity" of the FD deluxe version.

I just don't see it, Eric.
 
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Eric Lai
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I think I remember seeing the is phenomena with a couple of old S&T games actually... can't remember which games to be exact.
 
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Jiing Lin
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I believe that some people here in Taiwan are working on war games focusing on Asia, especially Taiwan and China.
They have founded a publisher named "Formosa Force Games" for about 1 year, mainly publishing a quarterly wargame magazine at their beginning and more war games gradually.
If luckily you could read Traditional Chinese, here is their blog:
http://www.formosa-force-games.blogspot.com/

Their next coming game is "Taiwan Strait Crisis 1950" which could be seen as a settling down of Chinese Civil War.
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Eric Lai
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The Local Hong Kong Wargame club has a cheaper group subscriptions to formosa magazines... too bad my reading/writing Cantonese is so crap... (speak fluent Cantonese)
 
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Larz Welo
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No more stones. No more spears. No more slings. No more swords. No more weapons! NO MORE SYSTEMS!
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Yeah...thanks for the feedback everybody...I'll just descend into depression now. Seriously though, this would be an awesome game, probably have "tons" of replayibility, and I would buy it. Maybe I'll just get War of the Suns.
 
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